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» Forum Name: PT Boats - General
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» Topic:
Weighted Pouch
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Hello Message Board:
I was wondering. If a PT BOAT was damaged and might be sunk, or some other mishap occured, did the boat have a weighted pouch that the skipper could throw in important papers and let them sink to the bottom? Always wondered about that espically if the crew was in danger of being captured. I had heard there was a charge on board that could burn the boat, but Iam not even sure that was the case.
Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Jun 25, 2008 - 12:19pm
Total Posts: 3547 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am
There was a demo charge, Frank. Look under the chair in your office...
Will
Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Jun 25, 2008 - 2:09pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
TO LATE WILL, BOoooooommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!!!!!!
Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Jun 25, 2008 - 3:09pm
Total Posts: 3547 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am
Hi Frank, I know I have read something about this before in Bulkley's "At close quarters" so I researched it and found this: On page 240-241
"On the night of May 2, 1944 PT's 114 and 144 sank two barges and damaged four more on the beach west of Bogia Harbor. # hours later, at 0130, the 114 went aground on a fringing reef 400 yards offshore from Yarin, on Kairiru Island. The 114 jettisoned its torpedoes and depth charges, and at 0630 was pulled off the reef by the 144. Preparations had been made to abandon ship, and by the time the boat was freed, the crew of the 114 had carelessly permitted a raft containing the boats codes and other confidential publications to drift away. As soon as the boats returned to the tender and reported their loss, LCDR Leeson set out to recover the pubs in PT129. With the 129 was the PT134. Late in the afternoon the boats sighted the raft on the beach at Yarin. With knowledge that the Japanese had big guns nearby, and in full view of a native village and a japanese military lean-to within 600 yards of the raft, Bob Leeson swam 400 yards across the reef in daylight to tow the raft back to the waiting PT's. The publications were intact. Ten minutes after Leesons return, a 3 inch gun opened fire on the boats from a position half a mile from Yarin."
So it would seem that surely they would have been placed inside some sort of weighted canvas bag with grommet holes to allow water in and air out to ensure it sinks. I have seen these "sink bags" on my modern day ship when I was on active duty, but I have never seen one that was used on a PT boat in WW2. But you must be correct Frank, they would certainly have had such a thing. I wonder if the PT SOP and Doctrine book on the HNSA website or maybe the pamphlet Know your PT Boat has anything about these "destruction sinker bags" Maybe a PT Radioman or Radar Operator would know? Jerry
Jerry Gilmartin
Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Jun 25, 2008 - 4:18pm
Total Posts: 1498 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm
Cool story Jerry - thanks for sharing that one.
Grandson of James J Stanton
RON 15 PT 209 and RON 23 PT 243
Check out: [url]www.pistolpackinmama.net[/url]
Posted By: newsnerd99 | Posted on: Jun 25, 2008 - 4:20pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Oh yeah Frank, one more thing, I am certain that the IFF Transponder called the BK (or ABK) had a destructor switch that caused two small explosives charges to blow up and destroy the vacuum tubes etc inside the ABK unit. These two charges were not very large, perhaps the size of a golf scorecard pencil, so they wer not powerful enough to scuttle the entire boat, but only to ensure complete destruction of the interior components of the ABK. The ABK unit itself was roughly the size of 1 cubic foot. On the Higgins PT625 class, I have seen blueprints of the Radar System which specifies this "destructor circuit" I think you can find it on the Loisiana Digital Library Higgins Industries Collection. I am pretty certain the 80 foot Elcos would have used an almost identical setup as what they had on the Higgins boats. The IFF units were common to both ships and boats and aircraft and subs. In fact i found a photo of an actual ABK Unit located on the USS Pampanito (WW2 sub museum in San Fran) website. I hope this info is helpful. Jerry
Jerry Gilmartin
Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Jun 25, 2008 - 4:34pm
Total Posts: 1498 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm
There was a built-in charge to destroy the IFF if needed to prevent capture. I never saw or heard of any weighted bags to sink documents or any explosive charge to destroy a boat to prevent capture. You have probably read reports of boats destroying another boat by gunfire when the boat could not be pulled off a reef. The gunfire could be used to set the boat on fire. Reports regarding the death of Cy Taylor state that he was flooding the bilges with gasoline in preparing to destroy his boat which was grounded a reef. He was mortally wounded by premature ignition of the gasoline.
Posted By: QM | Posted on: Jun 25, 2008 - 7:55pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Found my copy of "Know Your PT Boat" . At Jerry's suggestion checked it out and dicovered on page 30 and 31 entitled Abandon Ship Drill and decided to scan it.
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/scan0001.jpg[/image]
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/scan0031.jpg[/image]
Wayne Traxel
Posted By: Wayne Traxel | Posted on: Jun 26, 2008 - 2:30pm
Total Posts: 248 | Joined: Oct 11, 2006 - 5:40am
Wayne:
Thanks, and to think I have several of those publications. I think I need to read up on my PT BOOKS. So much information, that sometimes you do forget. Nice to see that even the small boats had a weighted bag or case to deep six important papers..........
Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Jun 26, 2008 - 3:26pm
Total Posts: 3547 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am
It sounds like we need to look at pp45-46 of the MTB Communications Manual for more info about destroying sensitive material and seeing a "desruction bill". Anybody know where we could find one? Jerry
Jerry Gilmartin
Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Jun 26, 2008 - 3:44pm
Total Posts: 1498 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm
I posted a Time Magazine article that mentions a secret device that must be destroyed. I spoke to my father (Skipper PT-154) about it and he could not think of what secret device he could have had that was so important.
[url]http://www.ptboats.org/cgi-local/sitenetbbs/netboardr.cgi?fid=102&cid=101&tid=810&sc=20&pg=1&x=0[/url]
Nat
natsmith
Posted By: Nathaniel Smith | Posted on: Jun 26, 2008 - 4:06pm
Total Posts: 213 | Joined: Jun 25, 2024 - 3:07pm
The secret device was the IFF. It was a radio identification device.
Regarding the explosive charges for destruction of the boat, I need to review information in At Close Quarters of boats being destroyed and some other information to which I have access. The book may say that the boats were equipped with a "self destruct charge" but I do not remember reading of this method ever being used to destroy a boat. It may take several days.
Posted By: QM | Posted on: Jun 27, 2008 - 11:26am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
FOR SALE ON EBAY RIGHT NOW!!!
US Navy WW2 WWII Weighted Over The Side Code Book Case
Item number: 350073232516
IS THIS WHAT YOU GUYS ARE TALKING ABOUT?
TAKE CARE,
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Jun 27, 2008 - 8:47pm
Total Posts: 3091 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Thanks Ted
Way to find an item that is dead on to the Conversation. I might even throw a bid in myself.........
Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Jun 27, 2008 - 11:59pm
Total Posts: 3547 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am
In reference to Frank's "weighted pouch" question and Ted's mention of the Ebay listing of the "U.S. Navy WW2 Weighted Over The Side Code Book Case," here's directly from the U.S. Navy "Motor Torpedo Boats Tactical Orders and Doctrine" publication, dated July 1942:
Part 5. Engineering & Communications Doctrine
Chapter 2. Communications
5212. Confidential Publications: C.P.carried on board MTBs should be carried in a locked W.T. case which will readily sink when thrown overboard, in case the boat is captured or destroyed, these cases should be turned in to the commanding officer upon return to base.
Guess those "W.T." (water tight) cases, probably the same or similar ones to the Ebay offering, WERE the weighted pouches, eh?
Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Jun 29, 2008 - 11:37am
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am
Regarding demolition charges on board:
In "At Close Quarters" I searched Appendix A to find boats which were destroyed to prevent capture. I found twenty-one boats listed. In the text of the book I then looked for information as to how each boat was destroyed. The results are-
Philippines--the early days: PT 31 set afire. PT 35 burned. PT 41 destroyed.
The Solomons: PT 43 gunfire. PT's 118 153 158 172 destroyed.
New Guinea: PT's 68 135 136 145 gunfire. PT 147 landmine [where did that come from?] PT's 322 339 destroyed. PT 193 gasoline [gasoline being put in the bilges prematurely ignited while the skipper was still below].
Morotai: PT's 368 371 destroyed.
Return to the Philippines: PT 73 set on fire. PT 321 demolition charge. PT 338 no method given.
Nine boats were destroyed by fire or gunfire. No method of destruction was give for ten boats. This information leads to no conclusion regarding a built in demolition charge, except that none was used on at least ten of the boats destroyed. The demolition charge used on PT 321 is interesting. I have no source to further investigate how the ten boats were destroyed. My guess is that the nine boats which were destroyed by fire or gunfire had no demolition charge. It would have been an easier procedure.
If we had a demolition charge on board, I am happy that I was not aware of it. I would have been unable to sleep.
Posted By: QM | Posted on: Jun 29, 2008 - 6:25pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Regarding demolition charges and weighted bags: I was unable to find information about the method of destruction of the boats in New Guinea which were reported in At Close Quarters only as " destroyed". Neither could I find information of the use of weighted bags for classified materials. It looks like all of he boats that were destroyed were in grounded on reefs, so a weighted bag would not have been useful if they had one. I was able to find more detailed information on three boats that were destroyed by fire or gunfire. following is the report on PT 145.
I burned all classified matter separately before abandoning the boat. The ABK unit was destroyed by the Thermide Destruction Charge provided for that unit. The radar scope unit and the receiver-transmitter were completely destroyed with an ax, rendered useless and making salvage impossible. I started a fire with papers and other material in my stateroom. Next I started a fire in the charthouse with other printed matter there, .......Three hundred rounds of 20mm and three thousand rounds of 50 caliber ammunition were expended. ............At 0420 there was a strong explosion and PT 145 was completely engulfed in flame.
Posted By: QM | Posted on: Jul 19, 2008 - 3:19am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
I guess it would only be logical that because the boats operated so close to shore that weighted bags for secret papers would really do no good. You are correct in that most of the boats that went aground, were destroyed by gun-fire from other boats, or in the last post by QM, fires were started below. This of course was only possible if they had time, and were not under heavy fire from other boats or shore batteries. The main objective was to get the hell out of there, saving what Crew you could. I am sure the very thought of being taken prisoner by the Japs was enough to make the Crew high-tail it away from a sticken boat by any means.
Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Jul 19, 2008 - 5:31am
Total Posts: 3547 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am
I have seen no report that a boat was abandoned without first being destroyed. A report shows that PT 68 was receiving fire from shore batteries and snipers. PT 147 was receiving sniper fire. Both boats were successfully destroyed before their accompanying boat departed. PT 193 thought that they were under threat of machine guns from a truck that had arrived on the scene. The boat was successfully destroyed.
While on routine patrols the boats may have retired from shore batteries, some boats also went on in if they had an inviting target. Boats with a 40 mm were much more aggressive in taking on and silencing shore batteries while at the same time their smaller guns were used on barges.
Posted By: QM | Posted on: Jul 19, 2008 - 2:34pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered