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» Forum Name: PT Boats - General
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» Topic:
20 MM Turret Mount
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Wayne Traxel sent me a plan drawing of RON 9's PT-156, It shows a Mk-12, 20 mm turret mountreplacing the forward twin 50's. Does anyone have any details on this mount. I will be attempting to replicate it on the Italiria 80 'Elco in 1/35 scale.
Steve
SteveS156
Posted By: SteveS156 | Posted on: Dec 19, 2007 - 1:11pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Yes,... Wayne. He did a very nice set for the MK12 mount.
Al Ross
Posted By: alross2 | Posted on: Dec 19, 2007 - 1:35pm
Total Posts: 994 | Joined: Oct 30, 2006 - 8:19pm
Steve - I'll e-mail you a couple of pictures.
Will
Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Dec 20, 2007 - 6:55am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Thanks Al.
Made this drawing in 2003 and is based on photos and written info provided by Former skipper of PT-156, Rex Anderson and Alex Johnson. Cradel appears different from those found on the Mk-4 and Mk-10 deck mounts. Viewing from the front its shaped like a sturrip on a western saddle. It appears (at least to me) that the Mk-17 mount was increased in length at the top of the mounting to accomodate the length of the gun. The lower portion of the mount is reinforced with triangular gussets and support rails are different.
Wayne
Posted By: Wayne Traxel | Posted on: Dec 23, 2007 - 9:13am
Total Posts: 248 | Joined: Oct 11, 2006 - 5:40am
Wayne: Are your drawings of the 20mm turret mount available for purchase?
Will
Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Dec 24, 2007 - 8:31am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Steve -
FYI:
The series of boats that the Italeri kit represents would not have that mount.
If you wanted to do one of the Ron 9 boats that had that mount? You're going to need to do a lot of plastic surgery to back date the kit to that series of boats.
The old Revell PT-109 kit would be a better candidate for such a conversion.
Just my 2 cents ...
Garth
You've got a question, I've got an answer.
Posted By: TGarth Connelly | Posted on: Dec 24, 2007 - 3:51pm
Total Posts: 76 | Joined: Oct 10, 2006 - 6:33am
Thanks, Garth, but I am a stubborn old cuss with my trusty Exacto knife at the ready. Santa brought me the kit this morning and I am still determined to model the 156 boat with the Quad 50 mount. Thanks for your continurd help and support. Loved your In Action Book and look forward to the update! Happy Holidays!
Steve
SteveS156
Posted By: SteveS156 | Posted on: Dec 25, 2007 - 9:55am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Thanks Steve,
If you need any help with the backdating, please let me know - I'll try my BEST to help.
Alex Johnson is going to be doing the 195 with the quad-50 mount and the 20mm (I think) in the turrets by using the old Revell kit and the WEM PE set and their Mark XIII torpedoes and 40mm and the like. Wayne even gave us the quad-50 mount in 1:76 scale...
I'm not sure that the upgrade to my PT book will happen, I'll need to ask Squadron first. I've just returned to their author line up yesterday.
Garth
You've got a question, I've got an answer.
Posted By: TGarth Connelly | Posted on: Dec 25, 2007 - 12:06pm
Total Posts: 76 | Joined: Oct 10, 2006 - 6:33am
OK, Garth, I give in and bow to your wisdom. Too much modification for 1/35th scale. I also will switch to 1/72nd scale and modify the Revelle kit. I have the 37mm and roll off torpedoes on order from WEM and have purchased a 1/76th scale quad 50.
Now for the 1/35th scale Italeri PT-596 kit. I would like to do PT-328 as depicted in your "In Action" publication. Are there any significant modifications to the kit that I need to be aware of?
Many thanks for your guidance!
Steve
SteveS156
Posted By: SteveS156 | Posted on: Jan 8, 2008 - 3:33pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Steve: Al Ross offers a good packet regarding mods on the Italeri kit. His wegsite is Coastal Forces. The infor packet sells for $25, and is well worth the money.
Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Jan 15, 2008 - 4:43pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Ordered the Packet. Looks like great stuff and i am back in the 1/35 scale Italeri 80' PT boat kit backdate mode.One of the picturew I have of the 156 boat with the quad 540 shows a 20mm mount in the port turret.the plan drawings I recieved show a 20mm mount in the starboard turret. Does anyone know the configuration when the quad 50 was mounted?
SteveS156
Posted By: SteveS156 | Posted on: Jan 21, 2008 - 9:13am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Hi Steve-
All the pictures I've ever seen of RON 9 boats in the field (PTs 153-162) show them with the 20mm gun in the starboard (forward) turret. If you have any pictures showing the 20mm gun in the aft (port) turret, please share them. Also any photos of the Quad Fifty mount.
Thanks!
ALEX
Posted By: Alex Johnson | Posted on: Jan 21, 2008 - 10:23am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
As Alex said, every photo I ever saw showed the 20mm Cannon in the forward mount. As this was an experiment, I do not think they changed the port side mount. I could be wrong though.The 20mm mount did not stay very long in the forward turret. Several years back, I spoke with Bud Liebenow ( Skipper of PT 157 ) and he said the 20mm forward did not find favor with the gunners mates and they went back to the standard forward mount of twin 50's. This was on his boat, so I am certainly not speaking for other boats in the Squadron........
Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Jan 21, 2008 - 12:18pm
Total Posts: 3544 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am
I've seen a photo that had what looked like 20mm in both locations. I'll see if i can find it.
Ed
Posted By: ducati650 | Posted on: Jan 21, 2008 - 12:58pm
Total Posts: 450 | Joined: Feb 19, 2007 - 10:01am
Alex, what is your e-mail address? I will scan what I have.
Steve
SteveS156
Posted By: SteveS156 | Posted on: Jan 21, 2008 - 4:08pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Al Ross' Allied Coastal Forces, Vol II has a photo of a boat with 20mm in both turrets. This is on page 146.
Page 220 has a photo of PT157 with the 20mm in the forward turret.
Posted By: ducati650 | Posted on: Jan 21, 2008 - 4:10pm
Total Posts: 450 | Joined: Feb 19, 2007 - 10:01am
The photo you are referring to shows PT 195 of RON 12 with Mark 12s in both turrets. The RON 9 boats (PTs 153-162) had the 20mm mount in the forward turret only, from all pictures I have ever seen, and they retained them through war's end. I did quite a bit of research on the RON 9 boats when I built my model PT 155 a few years back. Interesting looking mount!
ALEX
Posted By: Alex Johnson | Posted on: Jan 21, 2008 - 5:22pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Thanks Alex.
Posted By: ducati650 | Posted on: Jan 21, 2008 - 5:39pm
Total Posts: 450 | Joined: Feb 19, 2007 - 10:01am
Interesting Alex:
Mr. Liebenow insisted they did not keep their forward 20MM mount on PT 157. It goes to show that time sometimes can fog the memory when these guys try and go back 60 plus years. Thanks for the data Alex. I would love to see some photo's on the site if anyone has any of the 20mm in the gun tub's.......
Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Jan 21, 2008 - 5:52pm
Total Posts: 3544 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am
In the late 80's I was corresponding with Mr. Liebenow via snail mail when building an RC model of PT-157, Aces "n" Eights. Bud mentioned that Ron 9 boats received the Mk-12 mount upon arrival at New Caledonia and that some boats relocated the twin 50's forward on the bow. He also mentioned that the Mk-12 was on the PT-157 when he left the boat in February 1944. It never occurred to me to ask how the mount stacked up. When displaying the 157 model at the 1993 Reunion in Milwaukee the Ron 9 guys I met said the mount was powerful, some thought it was difficult to handle. The gunner on this mount also removed the empty ammunition drum and hefted the fresh 65 lb magizine by himself. Bob Haskett of PT-155 said when being shot at you'd be surprised how strong you become. The Ron 12 guys I met said that the Mk-12 was tried before leaving the states and was not favored and the twin 50's were reinstalled. However by late 1944 to the end of the war, PT 195 had Mk-12 mounts in both turrets. Skipper Mike Sharkey of PT-168 had a Mk-12 mount installed on the aft turret in the spring of 1945.
Really need to look at the info written on back of some of these photos. Rex Anderson writes on the above photo.
Wayne Traxel
Posted By: Wayne Traxel | Posted on: Jan 22, 2008 - 10:44am
Total Posts: 248 | Joined: Oct 11, 2006 - 5:40am
Wayne:
Thanks so much for setting the record straight and sending those great photographs. Man, I would not want to fire that weapon being so exposed to enemy fire. To me it seems that the weapon is so cumbersome and clumsy in that mount. I do not know how they used it to any degree of accuracy. I wonder what the recoil was on a 20MM set up that way. It certainly must be more then the twin 50's......
Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Jan 22, 2008 - 12:49pm
Total Posts: 3544 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am
Frank,
Not a problem supplying Mk-12 info. It's nice to know that there is an interest in this unusual mount. Been researching the Mk-12 for almost 20 years and most of the material was found by accident looking for something else. As mentioned earlier I never really asked the how the mount preformed and was more concerned with its appearence. Hind sight on my part. The Skipper of PT 156 Rex Anderson told me a story about how his Gunners mate named Gaddie really liked this mount and laid claime to it until finding a new interest when the Quad 50 mount was installed. The Mk-12 mount was manufactured in New York Navy yard and appears (at least to me) to have be a modified MK-17 mount. My take on the photos is that a triangular piece was welded to the front of the yoke to allow for the increased length of the 20mm. It also appears that an additional gussets were welded to the rear portion of the yoke and the heavier pipe bracing. On the Ron 9 boats the guard rails were modified to allow this longer yoke to clear. A heavier counter weight and higher back rest no doubt aided in traversing the mount. in 1993 Bob Haskett on PT 155 said that a 30 cal. mount was fitted to the spray shield behind the MK-12. The guy on the 30 would fire on a target until hitting something solid then the Mk-12 would finish the job. Bob also mentioned that the muzzle blast from the Mk-12 pounded the helmet of the relocated starboard bow twin 50 gunner when firing over him. For the most part the Mk-12 must have been a good mount. it was retained by Ron 9. and started making appearence on PT-115 and 168 and other boats near the end of the war.
Hope this helps.
[
Former PT-155 crewmember Bob Haskett indicated that while on patrol spare 20mm ammunition drums were located on top of the charthouse extension aft of the forward turret and also mentioned that the Mk-12 gunner would remove the empties and load a fresh drum without aid.
Wayne Traxel
Posted By: Wayne Traxel | Posted on: Jan 26, 2008 - 1:07am
Total Posts: 248 | Joined: Oct 11, 2006 - 5:40am
Wayne
Thanks so much for supplying some outstanding photographs. This is more then I have ever seen on this type mount. Actually, the gunner seems very comfortable firing this gun, although I still think swinging the gun into position in a flash would not be easy, and the re-coil must have been something. It still looks as though much effort was needed to man this weapon, and would have been a chore to fire at planes, which as you know came in very fast. It was tough enough to swing those 50's at a high speed passing target, let alone a 20MM Cannon. It just goes to show that these guys were always looking to add something different to get more fire-power..........
Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Jan 26, 2008 - 4:47am
Total Posts: 3544 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am
My thanks, too Wayne -- absolutely fascinating photos and facts.
Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Jan 26, 2008 - 5:08am
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am
This post has been moved up because of recent posting involving the subject matter.
What photos could be found were uploaded and posted in their original location. Some photo could not be found because servers no longer exist. Other images were uploaded to Photobucket under personal accounts rather than in the PT Forum account, hence the photos are lost.
Dick . . .
A few other pages (posts) were made under the same topics, when I can locate the images for those posts I will be updaying them and bring them forward.
Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Jun 25, 2024 - 1:04pm
Total Posts: 1487 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm