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» Forum Name: PT Boats - General
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» Topic:
1/35 paint mask adaptor scheme
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I would like to finish an Italeri PT 109 kit in the well-known adaptor scheme. Problem is that these 1/35 and 1/72 paint masks don't seem to be available anymore ::
https://www.scalemates.com/kits/gator-paint-mask-35th-pt-zebra-usn-pt-boat-zebra-camouflage--1274078
I wrote several mails to "Gator" but so far I haven't received a reply. Any info on availability would be welcome, I take it that no one has ever produced 1/35 or 1/72 decals of the adaptor scheme. Reproducing this camo pattern onto a model without the benefit of a paint mask or decals is definitely not my idea of fun [:-happy-:].
Regards,
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Sep 13, 2024 - 10:49am
Total Posts: 190 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
Arjan;
FYI The masks are only good for one boat, and it is probably incorrect. Your better off creating your own mask, yes it will be time consuming and painful, but it will have a better chance of being correct.
The most photographed is PT 139 RON 4which was the camo scheme prototype. Once underway testing and the Research and Development photos were taken, the boat was repainted back to gray.
The next boat to be painted in this scheme and most photographed was PT 170 RON 10.
All the boats in RON 10 were painted in this camo scheme, but every boat was painted differently, no two were alike.
I originally thought that the decks were painted solid gray, but, in a recent video clip, of a RON 10 boat launching a practice torpedo stateside, I discovered that the camo scheme was originally on the deck also!
Most of the photos in print are mixed 139 and 170 photos. You have to really research the boat you want, to get it correct.
Look at the attached photo gallery, a few years ago I uploaded all my photos of as many RON 10 boats as I could find, but most only show one side.
Take care ,
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Sep 15, 2024 - 12:29pm
Total Posts: 3091 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Arjan;
FYI The masks are only good for one boat. The most photographed is PT 139 RON 4which was the camo scheme prototype. Once underway testing and the Research and Development photos were taken, the boat was repainted back to gray.
The next boat to be painted in this scheme and most photographed was PT 170 RON 10.
All the boats in RON 10 were painted in this camo scheme, but every boat was painted differently, no two were alike.
I originally thought that the decks were painted solid gray, but, in a recent video clip, of a RON 10 boat launching a practice torpedo stateside, I discovered that the camo scheme was originally on the deck also!
Most of the photos in print are mixed 139 and 170 photos. You have to really research the boat you want, to get it correct.
Look at the attached photo gallery, a few years ago I uploaded all my photos of as many RON 10 boats as I could find, but most only show one side.
Take care ,
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Sep 15, 2024 - 12:30pm
Total Posts: 3091 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Much obliged Ted ! I thought I had downloaded most available pics of PT boats sporting the adaptor scheme but your photo gallery shows many more . If the paint mask I'm looking for is indeed no longer available I will definitely make one myself.
Seeing all the interesting pics you have uploaded I'm surprised how little is available in the way of decals for 1/35 Elco PT boats. I actually believe there is only a set of PT Boat numbers produced by Archer decals which is currently even no longer available [:-bigeyes-:].
Kind regards,
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Sep 15, 2024 - 2:37pm
Total Posts: 190 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
Hi Arjan
I think FRANK ANDRUSS really likes those Zebra Adapter Camo Schemes on PT Boats! Maybe he has some good photos he can share with you of his favorite boats wearing that measure.
Jerry
Jerry Gilmartin
PT658 Crewman
Portland OR
Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Sep 15, 2024 - 9:54pm
Total Posts: 1498 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm
Thanks Jerry, I will ask Frank if he has more pics of PT-169. This is the vessel I'm going to focus on. The reason for this is that so far I have found 7 pics showing PT-169 from pretty much every angle. This is more than of any other PT Boat with the zebra pattern. Six pics show PT-169 without her torpedo tubes fitted and I've found one rather blurry pic of this vessel with all four torpedo tubes in place. It would be nice though to have a better pic of this vessel with the tubes fitted. This is the pic I have found on Navsource . It has been misidentified as PT-139 but I'm absolutely sure it's actually PT-169 :
Regards,
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Sep 16, 2024 - 12:50am
Total Posts: 190 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
In the mean time I have found a much better copy of the pic I posted before :
I'm convinced this is also a misidentified PT-Boat (the one on the left). Navsource lists this as PT -168 which is impossible because it doesn't match a well-known bow shot of PT -168. In fact this pic also shows PT-169.
Bow shot of PT-169 :
Bow shot of PT-168 :
As far as I can tell from the available pics the deck of PT-169 was not painted in a zebra pattern. I assume it was painted grey and it doesn't seem to be a very dark shade of grey ?
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Sep 17, 2024 - 4:58am
Total Posts: 190 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
Arjan,
That underway overhead photo was taken on October 8, 1943, near Tulagi, in the war zone, the other boat is PT 59. This boat has always been identified as PT 171(LT. Arthur Berndtson).
At any rate, the deck here is painted dark green, it was probably painted gray enroute or in Panama, then they painted the deck dark green sometime after arriving at Noumea. This was one of the boats that survived the sinking of SS Stabac Manila, all surviving boats were damaged and repaired. The white stripes were also repainted a lighter green .
The video might be on YouTube or Critical Past, but it’s a RON 10 boat firing a practice torpedo, probably in Narragansett Bay, and you can clearly see that the deck is striped.
When first applied, all the boats had striped decks , it must have been hell for guys who were prone to seasickness!🤣
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Sep 17, 2024 - 9:47am
Total Posts: 3091 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Arjan,
That underway overhead photo was taken on October 8, 1943, near Tulagi, in the war zone, the other boat is PT 59. This boat has always been identified as PT 171(LT. Arthur Berndtson).
At any rate, the deck here is painted dark green, it was probably painted gray enroute or in Panama, then they painted the deck dark green sometime after arriving at Noumea. This was one of the boats that survived the sinking of SS Stabac Manila, all surviving boats were damaged and repaired. The white stripes were also repainted a lighter green .
The video might be on YouTube or Critical Past, but it’s a RON 10 boat firing a practice torpedo, probably in Narragansett Bay, and you can clearly see that the deck is striped.
When first applied, all the boats had striped decks , it must have been hell for guys who were prone to seasickness!🤣
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Sep 17, 2024 - 10:00am
Total Posts: 3091 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Again remember, PT 139 was the prototype for this scheme.
I also have photos of the RON 10 boats on tankers in the gallery, did you see them?
Take care.
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Sep 17, 2024 - 10:02am
Total Posts: 3091 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Hi Ted,
These PT Boats don't seem to have striped decks. Were these also RON 10 boats ?
Regards,
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Sep 17, 2024 - 10:05am
Total Posts: 190 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
Hi Ted,
These PT Boats don't seem to have striped decks. Were these also RON 10 boats ?
edit: you beat me to it , what can you tell about the boats we see here ?
Regards,
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Sep 17, 2024 - 10:05am
Total Posts: 190 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
Then they were painted prior to loading at NOB Norfolk. RON 10 went from Brooklyn to Norfolk and stayed for a few weeks before being loaded and shipped to Panama. I am looking for that video, just to show you, but go with the gray deck.
I was just looking through my zebra photos, and I just figured it out, the way to tell PT 139 apart is she has no numbers on her. They painted over the 139 on the cabin, turret and aft 20MM. Once the test photos were done, she was repainted gray and later green.
These are all 169 photos.
Take care,
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Sep 17, 2024 - 10:54am
Total Posts: 3091 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
The areas that appear darker than the white, on some boats, is because they are not white, they are light blue gray stripes
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Sep 17, 2024 - 10:59am
Total Posts: 3091 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Thanks Ted, you've been a great help ! No doubt some further questions will crop up during my build.
Regards,
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Sep 17, 2024 - 11:45am
Total Posts: 190 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
Ted, about the light blue grey infill you mention. Was this done because it was realized that the standard adaptor scheme didn't work too well for land based craft ?
I take it the grey infill is what Shaun Symonds used on his wonderful model of PT-174 :
The British Royal Navy used a special camouflage pattern for their MTBs and LCAs earmarked for covert and land based operations. Both these Vospers are American built lend lease boats, HMS MTB 371 has the normal camo scheme whereas 295 has the special pattern used for land based craft.
Another lend lease Vosper used for commando operations :
Regards,
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Sep 17, 2024 - 11:20pm
Total Posts: 190 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
Arjan;
Yes Shaun Symonds PT 174 model is great, he took a little poetic license on it because, for some currently unknown reason, the shielding and 40MM were removed prior to ROM 10’s shipment. Once 174 got out into the combat zone, another 40MM was installed without the shielding.
Take care,
TED
P.S. Go to Jeff Davidson’s www.pt103.com, I identified the boats on USS Atascosa (AO-66) .
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Sep 18, 2024 - 7:55am
Total Posts: 3091 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Well-done Ted ! Now I know which is which it's obvious but it must have been quite a challenge to find the matching boats. For those interested I've copied Ted's findings from the PT103 site :
Forward Port PT 167 (beehive radar SCR 517)
Forward Starboard PT 171
Aft Port PT 168
Aft Starboard PT 174
Regards,
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Sep 18, 2024 - 10:02am
Total Posts: 190 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
PT-169 Elco Photos from PT Boat Museum
Posted By: Andy Small | Posted on: Sep 19, 2024 - 11:50am
Total Posts: 267 | Joined: Nov 20, 2013 - 9:04pm
Thanks a lot Andy, these copies are of a much better quality. The last pic is completely new to me. Nice to see how the camo pattern extends up to the toe rail of the deck. Is that the shield of PT 174's Bofors gun in the foreground ?
Regards,
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Sep 19, 2024 - 2:31pm
Total Posts: 190 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
Notice PT 174 is moored to port. . Also 169’s deck is gray. Still looking for that video. But this photo leads me to believe, the camo deck was abandoned prior to shipment.
Take care,
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Sep 19, 2024 - 7:38pm
Total Posts: 3091 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
I wonder what was the color of the rectangular background of 169's boat number. This background rectangle looks much lighter than the color of the stripes.
Regards,
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Sep 28, 2024 - 12:21am
Total Posts: 190 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
Arjan:
Gray, the original factory color. RON 10 boats all left the boat basin in gray, then was repainted in a version of this camo scheme. I have a photo of 174 in gray.
Take care,
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Oct 1, 2024 - 9:48am
Total Posts: 3091 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Thanks Ted , that makes sense.. I could have known they simply kept the original numbers and painted the new camouflage pattern around them. This is also what happened when these RN LCVPs were overpainted in dark grey or olive drab for the Rhine crossing in 1945 (location Antwerp).
Regards,
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Oct 1, 2024 - 2:17pm
Total Posts: 190 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
Jerry
Oh you know me too well. That Zebra pattern really gets my blood
boiling. I have just shipped enough paint to the 658 for you guys to paint
her in that Zebra pattern...........Good Luck
Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Oct 2, 2024 - 9:44am
Total Posts: 3547 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am
Ha ha ha ha ha! I was wondering how long it would take for you to notice! All in good fun gentle ribbing Frank. I will be on the lookout for that paint arriving soon!
Jerry Gilmartin
PT658 Crewman
Portland OR
Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Oct 2, 2024 - 1:09pm
Total Posts: 1498 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm
Yesterday I happened to come across this pic of a Higgins PT boat on Ebay . Probably a well-known photo but I hadn't seen it before. I guess it's PT-208 ?
Regards,
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Oct 2, 2024 - 10:58pm
Total Posts: 190 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
Yes that is 208, it had an eight ball painted on both sides of the bow. PT 207 was also an adapter scheme boat. The 3rd Med boat was PT 306 RON 22, but she was painted adapter in gray.
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Oct 3, 2024 - 6:33am
Total Posts: 3091 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
In the mean time I have finished building my model and yesterday I gave it a coat of primer.
By the way, just like my previous two 1/35 PT models I'm going to convert this model into an rc version once the painting has been finished. I have been running my first PT model for 10 years now and I still run it every month in the rc boating season :
Before I actually start painting the Zebra pattern I would like to make sure I'm not mistaken about the various colors. Am I correct that when the test photos of PT-169 were made the stripes were in black, white and blueish light grey ? I'm asking this because I get the impression that PT-166 only had black and white stripes :
Also Shaun Symonds's PT-174 model shows a light grey shade for some stripes but a darker shade of grey for the deck and roof of the chart house. Is this correct and does that mean that the grey stripes were not the original grey hull color ?
Finally, I wonder if the PT-boats on the Stanvic Manilla were finished in the Zebra scheme ?
THE "STANVAC MANILA (1)" :
Taken from the book : At close quarters: PT boats in the United States Navy - by Robert J. Bulkley
While the Tender Niagara was being attacked, the SS Stanvac Manila, a merchant tanker, was approaching Noumea en route from Panama with the second division of Squadron 10 loaded in cradles on deck. PTs 167 and 172 were Just forward of the bridge, headed forward. PTs 173 and 171 were just abaft the bridge, headed aft, and PTs 174 and 165 were just aft of them, headed forward.
At 0407 May 24 the Stanvac Manila, 100 miles south of Noumea, was hit by a torpedo in the port quarter. The events that followed were recounted by the squadron commander, Lt. Comdr. Thomas G. Warfield (1)
About 2 minutes after the explosion, the stern was so low that the after portion of the well deck was awash. Apparently the engine room and fire room were flooded as all steam, light and power, and communications were lost. One of the Manila's engineering officers had sounded abandon ship on a hand horn. The crews of the PT's 165 and 174 had freed their boats from the cradles and had then abandoned ship in compliance. The signal had not, however, been heard forward of the after section, so the remaining personnel busied themselves in casting their boats free and broadcasting on their radios. During this interval Ensign [Thomas E.] Falvcy had noticed no crews aboard the after two boats and had made his way aft to check on their holding down gear in addition to freeing his own boat [PT 173]. Lt. (jg.) [Russel W.] Rome (Senior PT officer) had countermanded the abandon ship order. . . .
Until daylight the PT crews and the armed guards stood by their guns while the Manilas officers and crew abandoned ship. . . . The forward 3-inch gun crew fired five rounds. About one hour after dawn the wind was freshening and the ship's bow had swung downwind. The stern had settled so that the stern of the PT 174 (lee side) had some buoyancy and was pounding lightly in her cradle. Ensign Falvey at considerable risk made his way to her, led her anchor cable from her sampson post to the stern of the PT 171 and then to the Manila's bridge deck. Between 0800 and 0900 the PT 174 was pounding heavily in her cradle. Lt. (Jg.) Rome, Ensign [Edward H.] Krusc (Boat Captain of the PT 171), and Ens. [Malcolm R.] McArdle were ab-le to board her but being unable to cut the Manila's shrouds the anchor cable was passed outboard of the shrouds.
The bottom was sound under engine room and lazarctte but gas fumes were extremely strong. The anchor cable was made fast to the 174's starboard quarter and all hands heaved from the Manila^ bridge deck until the boat was slewed around and lay athwart-ships. Her bow held fast to some of the Manila's superstructure which prevented further outboard movement. It was apparent that her engines would have to be started, despite the loose gasoline, if she were to be saved. [Homer] Banks and [Harold E.] Hershcy, both MoMMic, and from other boat crews, volunteered to go below and to attempt starting the en-gines. Without hesitation they started both wing engines and Ensign Kruse was able to back her clear. The effect upon mo-rale was tremendous. A cheer from all hands went up.
The stern of the PT 165 was beginning to slap against the after dcckhousc of the Manila. Her batteries had become wet as she had been damaged below the engine room but her engines were started with the auxiliary generator and by pushing her stern out she was backed clear. The water Immediately rose to stop the engines. All attempts to stop the leaks and bail were unable to prevent her sinking. Even though watertight doors had been secured she had received too much bottom damage to remain afloat.
The first plane seen by boat crews reached the scene shortly after 1000. The possibility of launching additional boats seemed remote. Nevertheless, the boat crews busied themselves breaking loose shoring to prevent damage to the after hulls and fittings, and throwing off strongbacks. (2)
Records, chronometers, binoculars, small arms, etc., were gathered from the remaining four boats and put in a lifeboat which had returned with the Chief Mate . . .
Waves breaking over the well deck lifted the PT 173 and set her down on two boat davits. Lt. (jg.) Rome and Ensign Falvey boarded her in spite of her precarious position, found her gas tanks and bottom ruptured beyond hope and flooded her with CO2. The bow of the Manila now lifted to 4 or 5 degrees, and she commenced to silo aft. The PT 173 broke loose and sank by the stern Just as the two officers jumped clear. The PT 171 simultaneously broke loose and floated clear. Her engine room was taking water more rapidly and transverse bulkheads were probably rupturing. Abandon ship was ordered and car-ried out quickly and calmly.
As Lt. (jg.) Rome went down the falls into the last lifeboat a sea capsized it, pinning him underneath. He had a glimpse of the ship's master standing on the bridge and, when extricated from under the lifeboat and brought back to consciousness, he went back aboard the sinking Manila to save the Captain. He did not know that the Master had been taken off while he was beneath the lifeboat. The bridge of the ship was at this time awash and Rome was tossed about by the sea there but finally managed to swim clear as the tanker took her final plunge.
The Manila sank, slipping aft, at about 1205, corkscrewing to starboard as her bow heaved up. The motion threw the PT 172 clear but she broke her stem on the yardarm as she cleared. The PT 167 cleared from under the tanker's foremast in a re-markable manner, having been carried down with the ship. She shot clear of the water completely but stripped her topsides on the mast. Her hull was least damaged of any boat.
About 1300 a destroyer arrived taking the PT's 167, 171, and 174 in tow. The PT 172 made Noumea under her own power. During that day, all night, and the following 172 made Noumea under her own power. During that day, all night, and the follow-ing day, exhaustive effort was displayed by the officers and men in keeping the damaged boats afloat.
Two boats (PTs 165 and 173) and one man were lost. The other four boats, with their crews, found haven in Noumea the following day.
(1) Lieutenant Commander Warficid had brought the first six boats of his squadron to the South Pacific and was already in Noumea at the time of the torpedoing of the Stanvac Manila.
(2) Large timbers laid athwartships and lashed down to keep PTs In transit from shifting in their cradles.
Thanks in advance,
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Oct 12, 2024 - 1:54am
Total Posts: 190 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
Yes the boats on the Stanvac Manila were painted in original adapter scheme, they kept it at least until late November 1943. I have photos of PT 167 retuning to base with the torpedo hole in the bow. However, shortly after arriving in the Solomons the white stripes were painted a a greenish color that was between O.D. Green and Zinc Chromate.
The grey sections you mentioned were close to Navy Blue-Gray.
I thought you decided to model PT 169? 169 didn’t have any of the counter shaded areas.
Take care,
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Oct 13, 2024 - 8:14pm
Total Posts: 3091 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Thanks once more for your reply Ted. It's indeed PT-169 I wish to model.I'm afraid I'm not making myself clear. As I see it PT-169 did have grey sections and stripes ?
I marked these areas in yellow. These same areas show up in all the available pics so the difference in shade is not down to the quality of the photos or lighting conditions.
Regards,
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Oct 14, 2024 - 12:19am
Total Posts: 190 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm
Maybe your right, I always thought it was the lighting. Looking at the photos again enlarged, that slant section behind the port turret also appears light gray and black lines.
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Oct 14, 2024 - 8:58am
Total Posts: 3091 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Arjan;
Here is a color plate I made of PT 208 RON 15.
The counter shade areas appear to be a sky blue or “Thayer” Blue the color the RON 29 boats were painted, but it’s a blue-gray.
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Oct 14, 2024 - 9:10am
Total Posts: 3091 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
PT 208 RON 15 photos: XO Dave Morrison 1st photo.
src="http://ptboatforum.com/PhotoGallery/images/4De98.jpg" alt="4De98.jpg" border="0">
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Oct 14, 2024 - 9:16am
Total Posts: 3091 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
PT 207
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Oct 14, 2024 - 9:18am
Total Posts: 3091 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Oct 14, 2024 - 9:24am
Total Posts: 3091 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Many thanks for your elaborate reply Ted. I really appreciate your patience and willingness to help.[:-cheers-:]
Regards,
Arjan
Posted By: Arjan Wiskerke | Posted on: Oct 14, 2024 - 12:00pm
Total Posts: 190 | Joined: Dec 22, 2018 - 12:04pm