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» Forum Category: PT Boats of WWII
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» Forum Name: PT Boats - General
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» Topic: Back to my PT 109 build
http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboardr.cgi?cid=101&fid=102&tid=4260

Been very busy lately with life's ups and downs. Decided to get busy again with the PT 109.

I have been searching (I think everywhere) for specs or detailed pics of (here goes, bare with me) the brackets on the left side of the Engine Room deck.

Here is a pic courtesy of PT103.com and Stu Hurley

and these also courtesy of PT103.com and Stu Hurley

Posted By: Capt Speirs | Posted on: May 4, 2017 - 4:03pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Although I'm not finished with the hatch, here's a few renders of the various hatch / coaming brackets.

The port side and aft brackets:

[image]http://www.pt103.com/images/asst/RenderEngineHatchBrackets_01.jpg[/image]

A clearer view of the outside port aft bracket, this and the side brackets would be hidden on the starboard by the throttle pushrod cover:

[image]http://www.pt103.com/images/asst/RenderEngineHatchBrackets_02.jpg[/image]

The inside and outside starboard aft brackets, a similar inside starboard bracket would be visible:

[image]http://www.pt103.com/images/asst/RenderEngineHatchBrackets_04.jpg[/image]

The starboard bracket for the turret, coaming, and deck:

[image]http://www.pt103.com/images/asst/RenderEngineHatchBrackets_03.jpg[/image]

Now the good stuff, here are some clips from Dick Washichek's Elco 80' drawing DVD showing dimensions.

The turret, coaming, and deck bracket:

[image]http://www.pt103.com/images/asst/RenderEngineHatchBracketsDwg_01.jpg[/image]

The port aft outside bracket:

[image]http://www.pt103.com/images/asst/RenderEngineHatchBracketsDwg_02.jpg[/image]

The port and starboard aft inside bracket:

[image]http://www.pt103.com/images/asst/RenderEngineHatchBracketsDwg_03.jpg[/image]

The side brackets:

[image]http://www.pt103.com/images/asst/RenderEngineHatchBracketsDwg_04.jpg[/image]

Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: May 5, 2017 - 8:33am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am

Yeah, yeah, yeah, Jeff is showing off again . . . . [:-happy2-:]

All kidding aside, fabulous work Jeff, as usual. It take a lot of dedication to spend hour and hours threatening your eye sight to convert the crummy and sometimes hardly readable microfilm files to beautiful 3D models. It’s been awhile since you’ve posted some of your illustrations or should I say models - thanks for posting, and guiding those who are looking for that type of details.

Dick . . . .

Posted By: Dick | Posted on: May 5, 2017 - 9:43am
Total Posts: 1478 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm

Great stuff, Jeff....

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: May 5, 2017 - 12:30pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Thank you very much. I'll begin on the brackets right away.

Although I'm not finished with the hatch, here's a few renders of the various hatch / coaming brackets.

The port side and aft brackets:

[image]http://www.pt103.com/images/asst/RenderEngineHatchBrackets_01.jpg[/image]

A clearer view of the outside port aft bracket, this and the side brackets would be hidden on the starboard by the throttle pushrod cover:

[image]http://www.pt103.com/images/asst/RenderEngineHatchBrackets_02.jpg[/image]

The inside and outside starboard aft brackets, a similar inside starboard bracket would be visible:

[image]http://www.pt103.com/images/asst/RenderEngineHatchBrackets_04.jpg[/image]

The starboard bracket for the turret, coaming, and deck:

[image]http://www.pt103.com/images/asst/RenderEngineHatchBrackets_03.jpg[/image]

Now the good stuff, here are some clips from Dick Washichek's Elco 80' drawing DVD showing dimensions.

The turret, coaming, and deck bracket:

[image]http://www.pt103.com/images/asst/RenderEngineHatchBracketsDwg_01.jpg[/image]

The port aft outside bracket:

[image]http://www.pt103.com/images/asst/RenderEngineHatchBracketsDwg_02.jpg[/image]

The port and starboard aft inside bracket:

[image]http://www.pt103.com/images/asst/RenderEngineHatchBracketsDwg_03.jpg[/image]

The side brackets:

[image]http://www.pt103.com/images/asst/RenderEngineHatchBracketsDwg_04.jpg[/image]

Posted By: Capt Speirs | Posted on: May 5, 2017 - 2:09pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Jeez....just when I think I'M good with the computer and my hands, along comes Jeff, the Master of Time, Space, and Dimension!

[:-cheers-:]

Cheers!
--Bob

Posted By: Bob Steinbrunn | Posted on: May 5, 2017 - 2:20pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Thanks guys, and thank you Dick for spending well over a grand making the original drawings available. [:-cheers-:]

Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: May 5, 2017 - 4:32pm
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am

After scaling all the decipherable measurements, I quickly discovered how very tiny the port side engine room hatch brackets really are. [:-bigeyes2-:]

This is going to be a challenge that when done should be impressive. I already found myself fudging some of the thicknesses to keep it plausible to scratch build these tiny brackets.

Posted By: Capt Speirs | Posted on: May 5, 2017 - 7:12pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Im not gonna call you guys rivet counters but....oops too late!
Awesome work Jeff!
Jerry

Jerry Gilmartin
PT658 Crewman
Portland OR

Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: May 5, 2017 - 9:59pm
Total Posts: 1484 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm

Im not gonna call you guys rivet counters but....oops too late!
Awesome work Jeff!
Jerry

Jerry Gilmartin
PT658 Crewman
Portland OR

I'll leave one bracket off.[:-laughing-:]

I have met actual rivet counters in my 50+ years of modelling some count rivets on the finished models, some actually build models and few actually build very impressive models but take years to complete. Gotta love this hobby, so diverse.

Posted By: Capt Speirs | Posted on: May 6, 2017 - 10:32am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Great models but the only ones that would question anything on these builds are the rivet counters. The average person that views these PT BOAT models have no clue about the boats let along all of the changes being made by the model builders. I know one of the best builders out there in my friend Stan Pienkowski and even he doesn't rivet count, the reason he says: it would take me so long to do a model I would lose interest in building them.

Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: May 6, 2017 - 12:27pm
Total Posts: 3531 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am

Hi Frank,

I suppose I'm a rivet counter but I do it out of fun and interest rather than an obsession. I spent 4 1/2 years on a 1/192 Fletcher-class destroyer, 4 1/2 years on Gloucester clipper fishing schooner, and so on. I don't mind the time at all since I have a secret.

I went online to http://www.liveforever.com, registered, paid my fees, then simply adjusted my life expectancy to 175 years. All online! Now I have all the time in the world to spend on models.....

[:-laughing-:]

Cheers!
--Bob

Posted By: Bob Steinbrunn | Posted on: May 6, 2017 - 12:42pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

I don't understand the disheartening negativity towards those wishing to build an exceptional model. Put an out of the box flat topped Italeri boat next to one like Stu's in front of an "average person" and see which one they are truly impressed with. Although I'd guess most exceptional modelers build as a labor of love to please themselves not others.

I not only count rivets bolts screws etc, I downloaded fastener mfgs spec drawings to make sure I get them as right as I can. I don't care if anyone thinks it's excessive and now I can pass at least the larger fine details on, to those doing the truly impressive physical modeling, through 3D printing.

and that, Jeff, is precisely the difference between a kit builder and a modeler. I prefer to see myself as a modeler, I enjoy the research often more than the kit itself. Nothing wrong with building a kit straight out of the box, I just find it boring. Yes it takes longer to model with accuracy and what is the hurry? I have learned so much about PT Boats and their history that it now has me looking at a Fletcher Class next.

Of course I will probably finish my Italeri Schnellboot and Revell 72 scale VIIC first...or not.

Posted By: Capt Speirs | Posted on: May 6, 2017 - 7:16pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

I stopped building back in the late 80s but was always an out of the box builder. I could sometimes tell when things were grossly off but other than making flash and seams disappear and laying on a smooth coat of paint on that's the way it stayed. With the internet letting us view what truly talented modelers can do, I try to give PT modelers accurate details so that they can decide how far to take it.

I don't feel that what I do now with my electronic models is in the same league although I do put a lot of research in and avoid "close enough" with a passion. But you guys going the extra mile building really nice physical models is greatly appreciated, keep up the fine work please! It helps keep the flame of interest in PT boats alive.

Anyone want a large box of partly built models? There's a half built Lindberg 109 kit in there! :D

Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: May 7, 2017 - 3:45am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am

Jeff, for my part I can only repeat that your CAD(art)work was the igniting spark for my project,and I guess it was the same for many others. Keep up the most excellent work[:-cheers-:]

Daniele Kläy

Posted By: Daniele Klay | Posted on: May 7, 2017 - 4:41am
Total Posts: 126 | Joined: Jun 23, 2015 - 12:43pm

and that, Jeff, is precisely the difference between a kit builder and a modeler. I prefer to see myself as a modeler, I enjoy the research often more than the kit itself. Nothing wrong with building a kit straight out of the box, I just find it boring. Yes it takes longer to model with accuracy and what is the hurry? I have learned so much about PT Boats and their history that it now has me looking at a Fletcher Class next.

Of course I will probably finish my Italeri Schnellboot and Revell 72 scale VIIC first...or not.

I say "not". My 1/192 Fletcher-class DD USS Kidd started as a BlueJacket Ship Crafters kit, again designed by Sensei Al Ross. Took 4 1/2 years and 2026 hours and incorporates 14,226 parts. See? I'm not only a rivet counter, but I count years, hours, and parts as well. [:-smilearound-:]

I do all this just for me....not to impress anyone, not to win competitions (although the Kidd has done well in this regard), but because of the journey. The journey is the goal, not the destination. I've learned so much about destroyers, been on board the USS Cassin Young in Boston, and have met so many helpful and outstanding folks that the time was well spent. I agree with the Captain.....out-of-the-box is fine. You build a lot more that way......but if you travel the rivet-counting way...you'll learn so much more.

Here's to all those of you who contribute so much to this forum! [:-cheers-:]

[image]http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r88/Ghostrider22/003.jpg[/image]

[image]http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r88/Ghostrider22/KIDD_FSMcover-Copy.jpg[/image]

Cheers!
--Bob

Posted By: Bob Steinbrunn | Posted on: May 7, 2017 - 7:00am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Bob,
The magazine article does not lie, that is absolutely awesome.

Best Regards,
Stu.

Posted By: Stuart Hurley | Posted on: May 7, 2017 - 9:36am
Total Posts: 255 | Joined: Mar 19, 2013 - 3:32am

Jeff,
Your 3D modelling is a skill just like 'physical' modelling and is just as important the way the hobby is going. The research you have carried out is enabling us old glue sniffers to turn out accurate work , so keep it up. Thanks.

Best Regards,
Stu.

Posted By: Stuart Hurley | Posted on: May 7, 2017 - 9:43am
Total Posts: 255 | Joined: Mar 19, 2013 - 3:32am

Didn't have anything to do with the KIDD kit, Bob. That was designed by Allan Baker back in the 1980s. Allen owned the Ship Model Shop and built a lot of models for the Navy. He did a number of 1960s era destroyers in 1/250, as well, and we still have the molds for those fittings.

Looks like you're getting the hang of modeling... [:-grin-:]

Al Ross

Posted By: alross2 | Posted on: May 7, 2017 - 10:02am
Total Posts: 994 | Joined: Oct 30, 2006 - 8:19pm

Didn't have anything to do with the KIDD kit, Bob. That was designed by Allan Baker back in the 1980s. Allan owned the Ship Model Shop and built a lot of models for the Navy. He did a number of 1960s era destroyers in 1/250, as well, and we still have the molds for those fittings.

Looks like you're getting the hang of modeling... [:-grin-:]

Al Ross

Posted By: alross2 | Posted on: May 7, 2017 - 10:02am
Total Posts: 994 | Joined: Oct 30, 2006 - 8:19pm

What? Not yours? But the plans are so "Ross-like"! The instruction booklet, too!

As an aside, I had met Alan Baker (AKA A.D. Baker III, the name behind so many warship drawings, plans, and illustrations in so many books...) at the Mariners Museum in Newport News in the year 2000. This was the last once-ever-five-years model ship competition and he was working in the museum's model shop. I chatted with him for a while since the museum was fairly empty, and although he knew the Kidd was entered in the competition he never mentioned he was the kit designer. Very nice guy, and so humble!

Cheers!
--Bob

Posted By: Bob Steinbrunn | Posted on: May 7, 2017 - 12:19pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Wrong guy, Bob. Alan Baker was from Eastham, MA. You met Arthur Davidson Baker, III from Virginia. Dave and I have known each other for decades and he is indeed a most delightful individual and outstanding draughtsman!!

Al

Posted By: alross2 | Posted on: May 7, 2017 - 2:41pm
Total Posts: 994 | Joined: Oct 30, 2006 - 8:19pm

Jeez.......I'm wrong again. I think I'll blame it on too many Floquil fumes!
[:-smilearound-:]

Cheers!
--Bob

Posted By: Bob Steinbrunn | Posted on: May 7, 2017 - 2:46pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Duuude! [:-sunglasses-:]

Posted By: alross2 | Posted on: May 7, 2017 - 2:48pm
Total Posts: 994 | Joined: Oct 30, 2006 - 8:19pm

.

Posted By: alross2 | Posted on: May 7, 2017 - 2:50pm
Total Posts: 994 | Joined: Oct 30, 2006 - 8:19pm

And I thought I was the only one that still had some Floquil paints in the rack!
Dave

David Waples

Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: May 8, 2017 - 6:29am
Total Posts: 1679 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm

Wonderful job Bob on the destroyer, keep right on rivet counting.......

Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: May 8, 2017 - 6:56am
Total Posts: 3531 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am

And I thought I was the only one that still had some Floquil paints in the rack!
Dave

David Waples

You should see what I have stashed away in my shop at BJ. Last week, we were swamping out the wood room for the new laser and found around 30 unopened QUART cans of FLOQUIL in various colors. They had been there for about 20 years and were still in perfect condition. Sadly, there weren't a lot of colors that I normally use, but still.... [:-grin-:]

Posted By: alross2 | Posted on: May 8, 2017 - 8:58am
Total Posts: 994 | Joined: Oct 30, 2006 - 8:19pm

I have about 50 bottles of Floquil dating back 30 years or so. I've always stored them upside-down for better sealing and they airbrush just like new.

Apologies to Captain Speirs for wandering off his original topic. But he's a modeler so he understands. [:-grin-:]

Cheers!
--Bob

Posted By: Bob Steinbrunn | Posted on: May 8, 2017 - 9:01am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered