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ť Forum Category: PT Boats of WWII
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ť Forum Name: PT Boats - General
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ť Topic: Day Room Roof Connecting Plates
http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboardr.cgi?cid=101&fid=102&tid=3010

Here's another item I can't find in a photo. Does anyone have an image showing these plates that secure the removable part of the cabin roof to the trunk?:

[image]http://www.pt103.com/images/PT_Boat_Elco_103_Class_Day_Room_Roof_Connecting_Plates_Perspective.jpg[/image]

Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Jan 19, 2013 - 3:22am
Total Posts: 2203 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am

If you are building an Italeri kit, I think Al pointed out that the reinforcing rim at the mouth of the funnel is too pronounced. It is a piece of 1/2" x 1/4" half round aluminum, so the model part could use some sanding down.

Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Jan 19, 2013 - 3:54am
Total Posts: 2203 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am

I've seen them on the 70' and 77' ELCOs. They connect the three cockpit segments. Never seen them on an 80'.

Al

Posted By: alross2 | Posted on: Jan 19, 2013 - 7:40am
Total Posts: 994 | Joined: Oct 30, 2006 - 8:19pm

Hi Jeff,
I just went through every photo I have and I can't find anything that shows these plates. Not good pictures and this area of the 103 class boats is rarely photographed so I can't say for sure. But looking at Doyle's book at the late war Elco at Battleship Cove there's no sign of these plates.

Where did you come up with these? I'm wondering if it isn't part of construction that when finished isn't visible? Just a thought. Tell us more about these.

Dave

David Waples

Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Jan 19, 2013 - 7:54am
Total Posts: 1680 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm

Here's a photo, you can see some of the brackets below the turret. I'll keep hunting for a closer pictures.

[IMage]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/CharlieJones/Ron_4_Boat_Engines_run_for_20_min_every_2_Hrs_during_winter_mos_001.jpg[/Image]

Charlie

Posted By: 29navy | Posted on: Jan 19, 2013 - 8:31am
Total Posts: 611 | Joined: Dec 28, 2006 - 3:02pm

I think this is just one of those things that is overlooked. I never saw them on an eighty-footer before, although very noticeable on the seventy and seventy-seven footer. Even with Charlie's photo, you have to really look and blow up the photo to spot them. I think what is not thought of here is the fact that items were kept on the dayroom, and must have been over-looked by the majority of us. You continue to learn something new all the time, good eye Jeff.........

Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Jan 19, 2013 - 10:13am
Total Posts: 3547 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am

Great Charlie, thanks for posting that image.

The plates were fairly thin so paint would blend them in quite a bit but the nuts on the bolts were topside and should stick out in a decent photo. The lighting and quality of Charlies photo really picks the whole plate out nicely.

Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Jan 19, 2013 - 11:01am
Total Posts: 2203 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am

What is the purpose of the plates?
Dave

David Waples

Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Jan 19, 2013 - 6:23pm
Total Posts: 1680 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm

I'm guessing but I think the plates were used so that the day cabin roof could be removed and then replaced without having the screwheads go too far into the roof or ending up with numerous holes from previous screws.

Cheers

"Give me a fast boat for we want to get out of harm's way too."

Posted By: PeterTareBuilder2 | Posted on: Jan 19, 2013 - 7:25pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

They tied the fixed part of the roof with the removable part. There was a plate on the inside also, through bolted and sandwiching the roof sections between sets of plates. The roof joint was a simple butt.

I was doubting their existence a bit too, even though another drawing shows the plates modified for the forward angled turrets on later boats.

Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Jan 20, 2013 - 5:44am
Total Posts: 2203 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am

The photo in the link below appears to show the clips:

http://www.williammaloney.com/Dad/WWII/MiltWWII/NavigatingTheLocks2/pages/06RearTorpedoCradle.htm

Steve Sobieralski

Posted By: Steve Sobieralski | Posted on: Jan 20, 2013 - 8:54am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Jeff,
Do we know what series of boats these appear on?
Dave

David Waples

Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Jan 21, 2013 - 4:54am
Total Posts: 1680 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm

Nice Steve, thank you.

Dave, one drawing, which I used for my model, lists PT 103-196 & 314-343. Another lists PT 344-367, 372-383, 546-563, 486-545, 731-760, and 565-624.

The plates are the same on both drawings except for 2 sets are trimmed off 1 7/8" for turret clearance on the later drawing. The later drawing also shows radar mast rest pads in place of 2 sets, for a total of 8 sets as opposed to 10 used on the earlier boats. The outermost plate centers were about 9 1/4" in from the sides of the day room cabin trunk on both drawings (81" span to centers of outside plates). Spacing across the roof is equal on the early boats. The later ones varied, if you were looking at the top of the roof with the forward end up the spacing would be 9", 8 1/2", 9", (pad), 20", 8", (pad), 18", 8 1/2".

The plates were made from 0.064" thick aluminum alloy. They were 6" x 3", with a 1" lightening hole in the center. The "ears" had a 3/8" radius, the round sides were 1 1/2" radius.

TMI? [:-whoo2-:]

Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Jan 21, 2013 - 7:55am
Total Posts: 2203 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am

Jeff, are these in Dick's parts catalog and if so can you point me to them?
Thanks
Dave

David Waples

Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Jan 21, 2013 - 8:46pm
Total Posts: 1680 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm

I didn't see them in there Dave.

Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Jan 22, 2013 - 4:05am
Total Posts: 2203 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am

No worries Jeff. I'll give it a look. I'm curious about the construction because I don't see a seam where the two roof sections come together? I'm assuming there's a seam there but they must have done something to keep water from leaking through so a butt joint is hard to imagine. I looked at Frank's book hoping to find something in the construction photos but no clues. No doubt they're there though. If anyone comes up with any photos I would love to see them.
Dave

David Waples

Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Jan 22, 2013 - 5:39am
Total Posts: 1680 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm

David . . .

Its sounds unlikely but the engineering drawings show no, nor specify any type of gasket or sealant used along the aft top joint, merely states a "butt joint" and attachment plates. However where the radiuses roof meets the cabin sidewall it shows and specifies an extruded ( thick L-shaped ) watertight gasket to run around the port, starboard and forward seam where they meet. At these locations the joint is a shiplapped styled fitting between the components, not a butt fit. The rubber gasket protruding from the joint is covered with a moulding board. This moulding board appears as a "trim plate" you see surrounding the cabin where the radiused roof meets the side wall. The roof and the sidewalls have 3/8" plywood covering the structural framing and this plywood is covered with "aircraft cloth".

The same metal plates (butt fit) and trunk cabin treatment ( aircraft cloth and paint ) are the same for the 70', 77' and 80' Elco boats, as indicated on various engineering drawings.

Jeff's beautiful 3D model is exactly as portrayed by the engineering and photos, I would assume the lack of a seam being shown is due to a heavy paint job such as appears when the deck seems to be solid and not individual boards. Below are some image samplings from the various engineering . . . .

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Webmaster/Plate-Elco-70copy.jpg[/image]

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Webmaster/Plate-Elco-80-01.jpg[/image]

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Webmaster/Plate-Elco-80-02.jpg[/image]

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Webmaster/Trunk-Elco-80-01.jpg[/image]

Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Jan 22, 2013 - 12:07pm
Total Posts: 1489 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm

Thanks, Dick!

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Jan 22, 2013 - 2:56pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Excellent! Thanks Dick and Jeff for bringing us this obscure detail.
Dave

David Waples

Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Jan 22, 2013 - 8:56pm
Total Posts: 1680 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm

Nice Dick, that's what I'm talking about! I'm sure many will find those drawings useful. From what I've seen, most of the Elco drawings are drawn very accurately.

Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Jan 23, 2013 - 2:25am
Total Posts: 2203 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am

Referring to the construction of the 77' canopy, the MTB Manual 1943 states
:
All canopy joints are covered with tape made of airplane fabric to make them watertight and metal clamps are used to hold the two sections together.

This photo of PT11's canopy clearly demonstrates the practice:

[IMaGe]http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i204/alross2/PT-11_Stripped-02.jpg[/IMaGe]

Covering seams in this manner is still common practice among small craft builders, although now they normally use fiberglass tape and resin.

Al

Posted By: alross2 | Posted on: Jan 23, 2013 - 8:17am
Total Posts: 994 | Joined: Oct 30, 2006 - 8:19pm

Thanks Al . . .

Great info.

Dick . . . .

Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Jan 23, 2013 - 11:22am
Total Posts: 1489 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm

Hmmm,
I am wondering would it be that as the fish tail Plates extend over both foward and rear cabin trunks that the area pointed out in the picture is where they would be after both pieces are joined together and that we are looking at an area that may have been missed during painting as the plates were there or the area not covered by the plate has "faded" over time?

Just thinking out loud here.

D.buck

Posted By: David Buck | Posted on: Jan 24, 2013 - 4:20am
Total Posts: 332 | Joined: May 4, 2008 - 2:59am

Fascinating -- as always, Jeff.

To quote the late Johnny Carson: "I...I did not know that!"

Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Jan 24, 2013 - 8:06am
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am

Hmmm,
I am wondering would it be that as the fish tail Plates extend over both foward and rear cabin trunks that the area pointed out in the picture is where they would be after both pieces are joined together and that we are looking at an area that may have been missed during painting as the plates were there or the area not covered by the plate has "faded" over time?

Just thinking out loud here.

D.buck

No. The quote is directly from the MTB Manual 1943 and the canopy sections do not overlap-they butt-join.

Al Ross

Posted By: alross2 | Posted on: Jan 24, 2013 - 9:11am
Total Posts: 994 | Joined: Oct 30, 2006 - 8:19pm

Sorry Al I should have made myself a little clearer I was only refering to the small areas at the end of the lines pointing to the lighter spots were the Plates would be.

If they were there they would be visible sticking out fron the end of the trunk .

Not the whole join with the Aircraft Fabric that joins the fore and aft sections.

D.buck

Posted By: David Buck | Posted on: Jan 24, 2013 - 1:47pm
Total Posts: 332 | Joined: May 4, 2008 - 2:59am

Here's some details of the brackets that attach the roof on the sides and forward:

[image]http://www.pt103.com/images/PT_Boat_Elco_103_Class_Day_Room_Brackets.jpg[/image]

Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Feb 25, 2013 - 9:34am
Total Posts: 2203 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am

Ah! - I missed this one. Top notch as usual Jeff. Nice explosion to see all the brackets. Now when was it you said you'd have the complete boat done, deck and hull with the works? ? ?

Dick . . . .

Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Mar 5, 2013 - 3:14pm
Total Posts: 1489 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm

Thanks Dick. Projected completion date based on current output is probably 2018 give or take a decade.

Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Mar 5, 2013 - 4:46pm
Total Posts: 2203 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am

@Dick - Jeff's obviously dragging his feet on this. . .

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Mar 5, 2013 - 4:53pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Now Will to refer in context to Dicks post was he requesting the completion of the excellent Drawings Jeff is allowing us to enjoy or does he harbour a wish for the completion of a full size 80' Elco to Jeffs Drawings.

Whart a shame if it were the later that you refer to Jeff draging his feet to...

Can you tell I've had a good day today even found a fellow Aussie who I talked PT Boats with and I gave PTBOATS websight to as he did not know it existed,

Now I call that a very good day.

D.buck

Posted By: David Buck | Posted on: Mar 6, 2013 - 12:47am
Total Posts: 332 | Joined: May 4, 2008 - 2:59am

Well duh Will, I get paid by the hour. Of course my boots look more like moccasins.

Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Mar 6, 2013 - 1:35am
Total Posts: 2203 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am

Psssst, Will - Just between you and I, I think he is dragging his feet too, because he's letting accuracy, detail and precision get in the way ! ! ! ! !

Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Mar 6, 2013 - 10:00am
Total Posts: 1489 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm

Dick - Thank God most of the rest of us never let those things bother our ranting. . .

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Mar 6, 2013 - 10:41am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Dick and Will;
Dragging his feet, maybe so on these diagrams. But when is he going to teach all of us how to do this???? Jeff has really been dragging his feet on this......since at least 2008!!!
Take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Mar 6, 2013 - 11:41am
Total Posts: 3091 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

I love to rant, although I haven't raved in quite some time........

Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Mar 6, 2013 - 11:42am
Total Posts: 3547 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am

@ Ted: Yeah! I tried to do it myself, but I broke the point on my #2 pencil.

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Mar 6, 2013 - 1:41pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Ted/Will - yes, he keeps telling me how easy it is - - -

However, after a few disingenuous attempts at experimenting with 3D & CAD I find myself disheartened every time I tear-off a couple feet of Vellum (my high resolution touch sensitive analog monitor), tape it under my Parallel Edge (I like to think of it as a semi automated T-square), flop down a couple 30/60 degree Triangles (analog delineated angle guides), a couple of isometric Ellipse Guides (semi automated Hole-o-meter), a large pair of 12" German stainless steel Proportional Dividers (semi automated scaling computer), a couple of Lead holders (analog stylists) and a nice sand paper pencil lead pointer (analog line adjustment tool). Then start plotting out each reference point before connecting the lines. This is my old stone age CAD program, post chisel and hammer but not by much.

Oh, I forgot mention the need for my Scum-X Pad drafting powder, and some good old Art Gum (analog delete/revise tool). This is really sad with all the computing power I sitting before me on my desktop and also at my feet, I'm still scribbling on paper after more than forty five years of technical illustrating. One positive note, I do trace all my line drawings into Adobe Illustrator and save the final art as an electronic .EPS computer files on my SMUG Mac.

Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Mar 6, 2013 - 1:52pm
Total Posts: 1489 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm

My dream would be Jeff hitting the print button on a high res 3D printer and a complete PT Boat is created with all that hardware detail. Now THAT would be awesome! Keep it coming Jeff!
Dave

David Waples

Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Mar 7, 2013 - 4:45am
Total Posts: 1680 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm