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ť Forum Name: PT Boats - General
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ť Topic: Airplanes in the Solomon Islands ... 1943
http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboardr.cgi?cid=101&fid=102&tid=2564

I am interested in the kinds of airplanes the crew of PT-154 would have seen in the Solomon Islands in 1943. Bridge Carney has been a great help ... he's and expert. I thought I'd throw it open to all of you. Can anyone tell what planes to add and which ones to remove?

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Nathaniel%20Smith/Japan.png[/image]

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Nathaniel%20Smith/USA.png[/image]

natsmith

Posted By: Nathaniel Smith | Posted on: Apr 14, 2012 - 2:15pm
Total Posts: 213 | Joined: Jun 25, 2024 - 3:07pm

As far as the American planes, the Hellcat and Wildcat, although in the Pacific were basically carrier based planes, as were the Avenger, and Dauntless. The B-17 was not used in the Pacific ( although tried) and was used mostly in Europe. The PT BOATS would have seen the Black Cat, Corsair, P-39 Lightning, Airocobra (Southwest Pacific) and the C-47, which was used extensively in the Pacific.

Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Apr 14, 2012 - 4:11pm
Total Posts: 3547 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am

Thanks Frank for the reply. I included the B-17 because of this picture?

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Nathaniel%20Smith/B-17Solomon.png[/image]

natsmith

Posted By: Nathaniel Smith | Posted on: Apr 14, 2012 - 5:10pm
Total Posts: 213 | Joined: Jun 25, 2024 - 3:07pm

You are correct Nat, the B-17 was used early in the War, but was decided it was non effective as a high altitude bomber trying to hit Ships in the waters of the Pacific. One plane you did not mention that was widely used in the Pacific was the B-25 Mitchell Bomber, a medium fast plane. In fact there were several instances of PT BOAT vs. B-25 in mistaken identity clashes.

Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Apr 14, 2012 - 7:23pm
Total Posts: 3547 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am

Nat

There were several planes that our boys would have seen or heard about in the Pacific. Certainly the Navy A6M or Zero Fighter plane, the Betty Bomber, Tony, Oscar, Sally, and Dinah. In fact, it was 4 F1M Pete Float planes that hit and sunk PT-34 in the Philippines. I know that several I have mentioned are not on your list of planes, but these are the ones that come to mind.......................

Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Apr 14, 2012 - 7:51pm
Total Posts: 3547 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am

One plane you may want to include is the USAAF B-24 and its Naval version, both used extensively in the Solomons. The B-17 was "very well" used in the entire SW Pacific area too, the Solomons has a couple you can dive I heard- I've id'd one (USAAF B-17) in the jungle in 2008, and a B-24 a couple weeks later.

There are wrecks everywhere. I've seen a P-38, a couple Wildcats, a Corsair, two B-24's, a B-17 etc. Japanese planes always seemed to be "bits and parts", as I am not a plane expert I suspect one I saw in 1981 was a Zero, and another the remains of a Japanese bomber, and another I could not id at all- as it was badly destroyed in water. I have several more locations to look into some year.

Besides the Aluminum (Japs used a red primer), one looks for the writing and if possible the MG rounds laying about to help in id work. If I recall offhand B-26's were also used in the Solomons, plus a P-39 was recently found (I read) near Munda. I heard of a discussion told to me off a US veteran who was talking to an old scout about Piper Cubs that apparently flew from Rendova...? It was hard to get local input when I was there as no one really lived there (harbor area when a base, or their not alive now) one should check > pacificwrecks.com

Posted By: Shaneo2 | Posted on: Apr 15, 2012 - 12:18am
Total Posts: 147 | Joined: Apr 17, 2008 - 10:19pm

All;
Shaneo Is correct, B-17E's and early B-17F's flew from Henderson Field on combat missions until mid August 1943. As he knows there are the remains of between 7-10 B-17's in the area mentioned. I am sure he knows of "Black Jack", a B-17F sunk in shallow waters off Guadalcanal. Below is a list of B-17 units that operated in the Solomons area.
Take care,
TED

Fifth Air Force
The 19th BG received some replacement aircraft and was joined by the 43d Bomb Group in Australia in March. The two units took part in the campaign on Papua New Guinea, before the 19th BG was moved back to the United States at the end of 1942, transferring it's assets to the 43d. The 43d BG flew combat missions with B-17s until August 1943 when they were replaced by B-24s.

7th Bombardment Group
Received B-17Bs, 1939 at Hamilton Field, California (USAAC) Deployed to Netherlands East Indies, Jan-Mar 1942 with 7 B-17Es 9th Bombardment Squadron operated from Java until withdrawn in Mar 1942. Squadron reassigned to Tenth Air Force in India. 19th Bombardment Group
Received B-17Bs, 1939 at March Field, California (USAAC) Deployed to Clark Field, Philippines Oct 1941 with B-17Cs Operated from Philippines, Australia, Netherlands East Indies, Oct 1941-Dec 1942 14th Bombardment Squadron (Del Monte Field)* Designated as Non-Operational, Mar 1942 28th Bombardment Squadron (Clark Field)* 30th Bombardment Squadron (Clark Field)* 93d Bombardment Squadron (Del Monte Field)* 40th Reconnaissance Squadron (Formed Mar 1942 in Australia)** Redesignated: 435th Bombardment Squadron (Apr-Dec 1942) Returned to United States as B-17 OTU, B-17s to 43d BG Dec 1942

Seventh/Thirteenth Air Force

The B-17 was to achieve its first taste of combat during the Pearl Harbor Attack, when the 5th Bombardment Group based at Hickam Field, Hawaii had 12 B-17Ds parked on the ramp. Five of these B-17s were destroyed, and eight were damaged in the attack. On December 7, The 38th Reconnaissance Squadron (Heavy), 11th Bombardment Group, with four B-17Cs and two new B-17Es was inbound from Hamilton Field, California to Hickam on their way to the Philippines to reinforce the American forces there. They arrived at Hickam at the height of the attack. One was destroyed, three others badly damaged. Remaining in Hawaii after the attack, in June 1942, B-17s from the 5th and 11th Bomb Groups were used in the Battle of Midway, but with little effectiveness.

Both the 5th and 11th Bombardment Groups joined the Thirteenth Air Force during 1942 and took part in the American campaign in the south west Pacific, fighting during the campaigns in the Solomon Islands (including the battle for Guadalcanal) and the return campaign to the Philippines. By the middle of 1943 both units had replaced their B-17s with B-24 Liberators

5th Bombardment Group
Hawaii, Solomon Islands, Nov 1941-Aug 1943 23d Bombardment Squadron 31st Bombardment Squadron 72d Bombardment Squadron 394th Bombardment Squadron Converted to B-24 Liberators, Aug 1943
11th Bombardment Group
Hawaii, New Hebrides, Nov 1941-Aug 1943 26th Bombardment Squadron 42d Bombardment Squadron 98th Bombardment Squadron 431st Bombardment Squadron Converted to B-24 Liberators, Aug 1943

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Apr 15, 2012 - 3:53pm
Total Posts: 3091 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

As I had mentioned, the B-17 was used early in the War, but was not effective. I doubt the PT BOAT BOYS even saw B-17's or B-24's while on their boats, as they were high altitude planes. I would suggest they certainly saw their share of Jap Float Planes, Fighters, and even some medium bombers.

Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Apr 15, 2012 - 5:01pm
Total Posts: 3547 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am

There are good articles on the subject on the web...

[url]http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_B-17_Pacific.html[/url]

Bridge

Posted By: TheBridge | Posted on: Apr 15, 2012 - 5:49pm
Total Posts: 319 | Joined: Nov 22, 2009 - 3:04pm

There was a B24 squadron at Green Island when we were there. They were flying out of there everyday I think hitting Rabaul and Truk at that time.

C. J. Willis

Posted By: CJ Willis | Posted on: Apr 15, 2012 - 6:37pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Thanks C. J. for setting me straight on the subject of Bombers. It is always a plus when you can get the dope on something from someone who was actually there.

Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Apr 15, 2012 - 9:50pm
Total Posts: 3547 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am

I agree with Frank in that it is always great to hear from a veteran (CJ) of the Solomons engagement during WW-II.

On the Wildcat and Avengers for instance- one who was in the Solomons, or read about the war there would know that although carrier capable, many USMC squadrons ( for example) were there using land based fields (only)- this to include other SBD squadrons. If I recall the the Wildcat I found there in the Solomons did not have the tail hook assembly visible in the tail area.

On the B-17, again I was not PT Boat crew and I was not there in the war (nor can I say for certain what servicemen then did, or did not see) and I'm by no means a expert on all pertaining to the Solomons in WW-II, yet reading Squadron diaries, books and even talking to locals of the time- there has been many mentions of the B-17, oftentimes now older locals there even recognized the die cast model B-17 I carried vs/against a B-24 model etc.

As mentioned here on the forum, there are several known B-17 wrecks in the Solomons, and many, many more waiting to be found. I was told of one I could not visit (due to time) in somewhat shallow water. I've never seen any mention of this plane in readings, however since I did not visit it I cannot say what type of plane it is, although some locals insisted it was a B-17. Note: as mentioned, many B-17 units were being rotated out in 1943, to be replaced by B-24's, the vast distance's of the Pacific made the B-24 more practical.

For GP, the USAAF B-17 I id'd in 2008 was downed (all crew KIA) in 1942 as result of a dogfight with a Japanese Mavis. From accounts it sounds if much of this engagement may have been well below 4,000 feet I reckon. The ex-pat reverend who recorded the clash- knew it was a B-17 at the time, as did the locals who watched the battle and all thought the US plane would win.

All the Coastwatchers knew of the B-17 and there is in writings mention that Martin Clemmens knew of the plane prior to the Guadalcanal landings, as they were snooping all over the place in the Solomons and doing a job of bombing Tulagi.

Naval PB4Y-1's were using Munda by early 1944, having moved from Guadalcanal. They Navy guys in those planes were fairly aggressive in attacking the Japanese at low altitude even mast height- both day and night a interesting book "We flew Alone" covers some of their feats.

To the OP of this post question > I would suggest visiting pacificwrecks (which I am not a part of), and at Search > Airfields > Solomons- there one can see the locations and many of the units/plane types that passed through those fields. I'm afraid otherwise you may stumble upon the occasional person here who may steer you (unintentionally) on a meandering course in the formation of their professional opinion on/about these aircraft in the Solomons,

-Regards

Posted By: Shaneo2 | Posted on: Apr 16, 2012 - 1:56pm
Total Posts: 147 | Joined: Apr 17, 2008 - 10:19pm

Shaneo;
This might be the plane you are talking about:
B-17E "Bessie The Jap Basher" Serial Number 41-2420
Ditched: September 24, 1942.
Wreckage
This wreck rests in about 60 feet of water, in good condition. Located offshore at Domo (Ndomo) Village, twelve miles from Henderson Field. All the engines are intact on the plane, the nose is collapsed, but cockpit still in good shape, with even the pilot's seat intact. The top turret is easily visible, as is other scattered wreckage. The fuselage from the bomb bay back is missing, salvaged on January 31, 1944. The ball turret lies on the sand behind the fuselage.

Jeff Johnson dove the wreck in 1999:
"I dove the wreck 3 times and it is relatively intact. Talking with the local dive master, he said that the locals witnessed the crash and the Japanese captured two survivors who they later executed. Another thing I noticed is that two out of the four engines had been feathered."
Take care,
Ted

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Apr 17, 2012 - 9:04am
Total Posts: 3091 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

Ted,

It is not the one you mentioned- it is in another Province.

Cheers-

Posted By: Shaneo2 | Posted on: Apr 17, 2012 - 12:53pm
Total Posts: 147 | Joined: Apr 17, 2008 - 10:19pm

Thanks for all the help! This is what all of you suggested.

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Nathaniel%20Smith/USA-1.png[/image]

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Nathaniel%20Smith/Japan-1.png[/image]

natsmith

Posted By: Nathaniel Smith | Posted on: Apr 19, 2012 - 4:22pm
Total Posts: 213 | Joined: Jun 25, 2024 - 3:07pm

Nat;
I realize images are limited but the B-17 should be E and F models, no chin turret(late F model and G model). Also the P-40 Kittyhawk(Camo with white tail) is left out, which the New Zealanders flew at this same time period in the area.
Take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Apr 19, 2012 - 7:13pm
Total Posts: 3091 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

Ted thanks for the help. I found a good Kittyhawk as you described ... but I 'modified' the B-17.
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Nathaniel%20Smith/Kittyhawk.png[/image]

natsmith

Posted By: Nathaniel Smith | Posted on: Apr 20, 2012 - 7:31am
Total Posts: 213 | Joined: Jun 25, 2024 - 3:07pm

Nat,

What an outstanding piece of work, And the help of the PTBOATS team really put in some details and validation to this collection!

Wonderful, wonderful stuff.

Bridge

Posted By: TheBridge | Posted on: Apr 20, 2012 - 9:13pm
Total Posts: 319 | Joined: Nov 22, 2009 - 3:04pm