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ť Forum Category: PT Boats of WWII
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ť Forum Name: PT Boats - General
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ť Topic: New subjrct for Revell 1/72 PT boat kit
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I am almost done with my OOB PT-109 and am looking at picking up another kit for another boat. I have a few questions, I want to do an early boat similar to the 109 before Kennedy got it but not necessarily the 109. What color, gray? Also would the boats that got there in '42 have had depth charges?I am basically using a similar kit, the PT 167 "zebra" boxing but have no interest in "striping" it.Also what would have been the configuration for the fore deck? Was the balsa float really there and the life lines and stanchions? I am also hoping to find a subject with the mast. Any good pictures of an early 80 ' Elco in the South Pacific in a similar set up to this? Thanks for all the help on my current project.---John

Posted By: John V | Posted on: Nov 21, 2011 - 3:54pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

There are several choices of course. May I suggest the 105 boat operated by Dick Keresey and John Iles. That's what I'm working on in 1/48 scale. With the standard A frame mast it would be under Mr. Keresey's command. Radar was installed by the time Mr. Iles took command. Another excellent choice would be PT-107.

Out of the factory it would be painted Standard Gray which would be Dark Gray 5D for the deck and upper surfaces. The hull would be painted Light Gray 5.

In theatre Mr. Keresey described the color of his boat as "Battleship Gray". I would interpruit that as Measure 1 overall Dark Gray 5D. In theatre Mr. Keresey's crew added a .50 cal on the foredeck mounted to what Mr. Keresey described as a pipe that passed through the hull and secured below. This was later converted to a 37mm under Mr. Iles command.

These colors come from Al Ross' book in the Bluejacket kit. Pictures of the 105 boat are very common. Here are some photos of PT-103 and 107 sporting what I believe is Dark Gray 5D. Caution, people will argue it is green but I don't think so.

[IMAGE]http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n27/David_Waples/PT%20BOATS/PT-107Rendova.jpg[/IMAGE]

[IMAGE]http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n27/David_Waples/PT%20BOATS/PT-103inroutetoRendova.jpg[/IMAGE]

David Waples

Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Nov 21, 2011 - 8:45pm
Total Posts: 1680 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm

I have noticed before in these refueling shots that all of the tubes on the boats seem to be trained outward. Any idea why?

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Nov 21, 2011 - 9:12pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Thanks for the pictures and color interpretations. The wheels are turning!---John

Posted By: John V | Posted on: Nov 22, 2011 - 2:26am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Only two reasons I can think of Will, One, is that it was much easier to fire a torpedo should something come up quick, rather than take the rime to hand crank them into position. I had heard this was done just before leaving for a patrol, or shortly after to avoid costly time. The other, could be that it was easier to walk around the boat while fueling. Just my own thoughts here...............

Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Nov 22, 2011 - 2:45am
Total Posts: 3544 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am

For John's benefit I'll put these pictures into perspective. These photos are from Frank Johnson's book. They show the 103 and 107 boats being moved up to their new base at Rendova.

One thing I find interesting about the 107 boat is that it still has its air horn. The 103 does not seem to have it any longer. I digress.

Johnson's book does not give any indication on why the tubes are trained in their firing position. It would be interesting to get a perspective on this from one of our vets. Training them out would reduce the space around the fueling locations as they are slightly aft of the pivot points on the tubes. Maybe there's a reason for doing it that way?

Here's a photo of the 105 boat at Panama prior to being deployed. Note that none of the windows on these boats is painted over including the windows on the forward side of the chart house. Also the wind screens are unpainted as well and Mr. Keresey told me that he never painted them over and this appears to be true of the 103 and 107 boats as well. At some point he removed the wrap around the helm to try and reduce weight.

Also note the wood bit on the foredeck. This changed to the metal bit on the 109 boat.

Note: This 105 photo from Navsource identifies the boat off the east coast. Frank's book identifies the boat off the coast of Panama.

[IMAGE]http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n27/David_Waples/PT%20BOATS/PT-105.jpg[/IMAGE]
Dave

David Waples

Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Nov 22, 2011 - 5:18am
Total Posts: 1680 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm

I always sort of assumed that those shots were publicity shots taken off the east coast, if for no other reason than the officers on the bridge are wearing neckties! lol

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Nov 22, 2011 - 6:09am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Will;
You are correct these photos and the rest of the set was photographed on or about 18 July 1942 off east coast. RON 5 did not head to Panama until late August 1942.(at this time RON 5 consisted of PT 103-PT 114).
take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Nov 23, 2011 - 4:21pm
Total Posts: 3071 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

Thanks, so the boats just off the liberty ships would be 5D deck and topside with 5L hull and red below water line and then when put in service were overall 5D with red below water line. When did they start using depth charges? Also it looks as though most had the balsa float on the day cabin behind the mast. It looks as if the spotlight isn't where Revell put it. It seems to be a little further back on the port side and behind the cockpit wall a bit. I guess the next one I will have to do some dremeling and sanding on the foredeck but the painting will be a breeze, overall 5D(gunship gray) with red hull below the waterline!---John

Posted By: John V | Posted on: Nov 25, 2011 - 3:22pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Hi John,
The depth charges on these boats are replaced with torpedo tubes when the get into theatre. However depth charges are seen on PT Boats throughout the war.
Dave

David Waples

Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Nov 26, 2011 - 3:43pm
Total Posts: 1680 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm

John: That shade of red on the bottom was called COPPEROID. You can get it pre-mixed in that color for your next project.

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Nov 26, 2011 - 4:37pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Thanks David. I noticed the "east coast" pictures had forward torpedo tubes and 4 depth charges per side where the rear torpedo tubes should have been. Did all the boats use balsa floats and dingys?---John

That I'm not sure of. One of our experts can probably enlighten us on that. One thing I can tell you from my conversations with Mr. Keresey of PT-105 is that they pretty much put that thing wherever it was out of the way. He mentioned that his spent a lot of time on top of the day cabin. Some just didn't keep them on the boat.

David Waples

Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Nov 26, 2011 - 7:36pm
Total Posts: 1680 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm

John

I am almost certain that the Dingy on PT-107 was not standard issue from Elco when they were completed. Where they picked that up, I am not sure. The balsa Raft was however standard equipment on the 103 class boats early on, and although they were made to carry on the forward part of the bow, they were shifted around. Some were carried on the day room canopy, and some put them on the chart house roof. They did become cumbersome, which is why some Skippers choose to remove them altogether, and replace them with the blow up raft. Again, no two boats were alike, once they got into the War Zone..........................

Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Nov 26, 2011 - 7:49pm
Total Posts: 3544 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am

I'd have thought the reason the tubes on the 103 and 107 are trained out in the Russells-to-Rendova refueling photos is obvious -- to be ready for action, should any Japanese shipping be encountered. Just my two cents.

I'd guess the color of the 105 ("Battleship Grey") to be Dark Grey also.

It looks to me that in the refueling at sea photos, both the 103 and the 107 have the standard-issue PT balsa rafts on their dayroom canopies.

It also looks like you can see the bottom and keel of an additional small skiff on the port side of the 107's dayroom canopy.

Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Nov 26, 2011 - 8:05pm
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am

I have also seen the raft resting on the deck and lashed upright to the port side of the dayroom.

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Nov 27, 2011 - 6:21am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Thanks for the information. I guess I am going with an early 107, overall dark gray with copperoid red below waterline. I am using a Revell 109 kit so I will use the weapons with the kit, The balsa float will be moved to the day room roof, saddles for it on thefore deck removed and sanded. Also I am not using the life line and stanchions on the fore deck, holes will be filled and sanded. I am moving the search light from the port side deck to the port side area just behind the cockpit as per reference pictures. Mast will be used and rigged. Thanks again for all the help and ideas.---John

Posted By: John V | Posted on: Nov 27, 2011 - 9:12am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

holes will be filled and sanded

Actually you may want to consider leaving the holes in the deck. Actually you may want to fill them but drill smaller holes that are more to scale. The mountings for the stanchions were left in place on these boats even though they were rarely if ever used in theatre. On my 105 boat I inserted the mounts for the stanchions even though I'm not going to model it with the stanchions.
Dave

David Waples

Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Nov 27, 2011 - 11:18am
Total Posts: 1680 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm

Thanks David, will do as it saves me work! I also found another boo boo that I won't do. I was going through some old posts here and it seems my painting the prop shafts red was a major goof. This time they will be natural metal, a chrome silver is close to stainless steel color. I use to weld stainless steel paper machinery years ago and the abrasive pulp use to almost make the stainless steel look chromed!---JOHN

Posted By: John V | Posted on: Nov 27, 2011 - 12:23pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

John,
Those propeller shafts were made from MONEL, which is an alloy of stainless steel that is not magnetic and stays pretty shiny, but not as shiny as chrome. Here are 2 photos showing the Monel Propeller shafts on PT658 the last time we had her out of the water on the cradle. Notice the cylindrical zinc sleeves mounted toward the back of each shaft. Also notice the bronze color of the propellers. We cleaned them up with wire wheel and you can see the mottled bronze showing through the oxidation on each blade of the props. I hope these are helpful. Jerry

Looking up from directly below the stern
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/PT658/PT658cradleshowingIbeamsandwoodenbu.jpg[/image]

Screws and shafts from astern

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/PT658/PT658showingsquarezincplatesoverrud.jpg[/image]

Jerry Gilmartin

Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Nov 27, 2011 - 3:22pm
Total Posts: 1486 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm

Thanks Jerry, that color reminds me of what a machined steel shaft looks like when it's protected by a thin coat of cosmoline. I worked as a welder in a machine shop and our shafts were cosmolined for shipping. It kinda looks like Model Masters' steel color too. Thanks for the pictures.---John

Posted By: John V | Posted on: Nov 27, 2011 - 3:40pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Here's where the two searchlight brackets mount on the early armor John:

[image]http://www.pt103.com/images/PT_Boat_Elco_103_Class_Bridge_And_Chart_House_Gridded_Armor.jpg[/image]

Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Nov 27, 2011 - 4:47pm
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am

Thanks Jeff. I found a picture of 107 with searchlight, but your drawings gives me an exact location and how to mount it. Also in this picture the American flag is flown at the same height as another flag. Shouldn't it be on the right side, starboard, when viewed from the front?---John
[image]http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k256/john5353/12-08.jpg[/image]

Posted By: John V | Posted on: Nov 27, 2011 - 5:28pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Jeff . . .

Would you PLEASE stop showing-off, it getting real old!

Thanks Jeff, great detail as always and fab-u-lous work, some day you'll put put the Elco microfilm to waste/shame.

DIck . . .

Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Nov 27, 2011 - 7:52pm
Total Posts: 1487 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm

Blame yourself Dick, you're the one that gave the DVD to me! It was like giving crack to an addict. But I'd need at least another lifetime to get them all into 3D at the rate I work. Even then, there is so much more info on the drawings. Anyone with a deep interest should own a copy.

Posted By: Jeff D | Posted on: Nov 28, 2011 - 1:11am
Total Posts: 2200 | Joined: Dec 21, 2006 - 1:30am

Actually, I believe the light color was #5 Standard Navy Gray, rather than 5-L Light Gray, but will gladly defer to anyone having more concrete info than I have at hand at the moment.

Cheers,
John Snyder
White Ensign Models
http://WhiteEnsignModels.com

Posted By: John Snyder | Posted on: Nov 29, 2011 - 7:14am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Generally, you can have a warm, fuzzy feeling about whatever Snyder says about USN camouflage. [:-cheers-:]

For those of you who don't know him, John has studied USN camo for decades and has produced a line of paints matched to the same standard as the WWII USN did - the 1929 Munsell Book of Colors.

Al Ross

Posted By: alross2 | Posted on: Nov 29, 2011 - 7:51am
Total Posts: 994 | Joined: Oct 30, 2006 - 8:19pm

Hello---been a while , I have my early PT-109 done and here are a few pictures-- I will be starting my PT-107 using the Revell PT-109 kit but not for a bit. I am moving, 1200 miles from New England to Fl so it will be a few weeks to month at least. Thanks to all for the pictures and help, it was most appreciated!---John
[URL=http://s90.photobucket.com/user/john5353/media/PT1095_zps467771ea.jpg.html][IMG]http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k256/john5353/PT1095_zps467771ea.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
[URL=http://s90.photobucket.com/user/john5353/media/PT1093_zps9d85d650.jpg.html][IMG]http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k256/john5353/PT1093_zps9d85d650.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
[URL=http://s90.photobucket.com/user/john5353/media/PT1097_zpsc62b003c.jpg.html][IMG]http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k256/john5353/PT1097_zpsc62b003c.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
[URL=http://s90.photobucket.com/user/john5353/media/PT1096_zps08e52ccc.jpg.html][IMG]http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k256/john5353/PT1096_zps08e52ccc.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

Posted By: John V | Posted on: Dec 12, 2013 - 6:25am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered