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ť Forum Category: PT Boats of WWII
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ť Forum Name: PT Boats - General
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ť Topic: 20MM Splinter Shield
http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboardr.cgi?cid=101&fid=102&tid=2153

So many models of PT-109 have been made over the years, I was wondering when did PT-109 get rid of her aft splinter shield on the 20mm cannon. I have seen models with and without, but with not much photographic evidence out there, it is hard to support the removal. I had some shots of the 109 when she was being transported but do not remember what the gun shows. In the movie PT-109, she is shown with the shield in place. Former gunners mate Larry Olgivie, who served with Ron 5 and happened to be with Kennedy when the boat was sunk on PT-163, mentioned to me that some of the boats had removed those shields, and some kept them. He did not mention any dates in his conversation, so hence my question about PT-109.

While we are on the subject, does anyone know of any companies that sell the 20mm Cannon or PT Boat parts in 1/24 scale?.......................

Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Apr 10, 2011 - 7:05am
Total Posts: 3545 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am

The shield is not fitted to the 109 in photos of her being shipped.

1/24 scale resin and cast metal parts for PTs are available from: [url]http://www.johnrhaynes.com[/url]. His stuff is also sold through the Floating Drydock [url]http://www.floatingdrydock.com[/url] John's fittings are exquisite. I've used them for a number of projects and am delighted with the quality.

Al Ross

Posted By: alross2 | Posted on: Apr 10, 2011 - 7:41am
Total Posts: 994 | Joined: Oct 30, 2006 - 8:19pm

Thanks for the links on the parts Al. I will check them out a little later. Still wondering when and why the shields were removed. In many of the shots I have from Elco, they show the boats with the shields attached on trial runs. Were the shields removed just for the trip over? Why would they remove the shields so quickly from the factory to the war zone, when these were the first 80 footers to see service. Was this decided prior to shipment..................

Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Apr 10, 2011 - 7:48am
Total Posts: 3545 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am

According to the Gun and Turret Catalog, the shield weighed 250 pounds. It was attached to the cradle with just a few bolts, so was easily removed.

We can close in on the removal date by looking at dated photos. I have one of PT 78 dated 9/23/42 on competion that has a shielded 20mm, A BUAER photo dated 1/26/43 shows her without the shield. The photo of 109 on the STANTON is dated 8/20/42 and she was completed on 7/10/42.

Perhaps Charlie came across a BUSHIPS or BUORD memo on the shield removal while researching his MTBSTC book??

Posted By: alross2 | Posted on: Apr 10, 2011 - 10:33am
Total Posts: 994 | Joined: Oct 30, 2006 - 8:19pm

There seems to be a preponderance of photographic evidence that some boats mounted the shield and some didn't. Short of an Officeal Directive, I wonder if it could have been an "on scene" decision in some instances.

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Apr 10, 2011 - 10:38am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

OK, I'll play devil's advocate and maybe stir up a little research project for one or more of our membership[:-devil-:] I've been through every PT book I have and did not find a single photo of a US PT outside the US that had a shielded 20mm. Show me a photo of a PT in-theatre with a shielded 20mm!!![:-grin-:]

Al Ross

Posted By: alross2 | Posted on: Apr 10, 2011 - 1:05pm
Total Posts: 994 | Joined: Oct 30, 2006 - 8:19pm

Hi there.

At 250 pounds weight and given a stiff breeze or wind, I wonder if those shields made it a lot harder to train or maneuver the 20mm?

Just an idea as to why the shields might have been removed so soon by the crews.

Cheers from Peter

"Give me a faster PT boat for I'd like to get out of harm's way!"

Posted By: PeterTareBuilder | Posted on: Apr 10, 2011 - 5:38pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Dr. Ross,

Frank D. Johnson's book "United States PT-Boats Of World War II In Action" has a photo on page 99 of a number of 80' Elcos nosed into the shore at Tulagi, two of which can be seen with shields on their stern 20mms.

I think Gene Kirkland's PT KING website, in its New Guinea section, has a photo of some 80' Elcos up the Morobe River, one of which still has its 20mm shield.

These are the only examples I can think of right now.

P.S. Frank, the stern 20mm on the movie boat in "PT 109" didn't have a shield on it...

-- Drew

Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Apr 10, 2011 - 7:13pm
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am

Two points for Drew on the Johnson photo[:-cheers-:] Not sure about the one on Gene's site. If you mean the third boat from the left, I've enlarged it and there's something about the shape that just doesnt look right. Do you have a higher resolution copy of that photo, Gene?

Al Ross

Posted By: alross2 | Posted on: Apr 10, 2011 - 7:40pm
Total Posts: 994 | Joined: Oct 30, 2006 - 8:19pm

I take your point Al. When you zoom in on it, it does not look like a shield. It alsmost has the look of fabric or canvas.
Dave

David Waples

Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Apr 10, 2011 - 8:49pm
Total Posts: 1680 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm

Drew, Thanks for the correction on the movie end of things, you would think I should have caught that one. I must admit I have not seen the movie in some time, but will when I get home.

Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Apr 11, 2011 - 1:50am
Total Posts: 3545 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am

Al;
The photos of RON 5 off the East Coast are all dated 12 July 1942, none of the boats have the shield mounted on the 20mm. The photos on SS. Joseph Stanton, which show 107 and 108 on the aft deck and 109 and 110 on the fore deck, shows none of these boats have the shield mountedthe date of these photos are 20 Aug 1942. The photos of 103 and 105 on whatever ship they are on also show no shield.
Take care,
TED
P.S. Actually the commissiioning photos of PT 103 and the photos of PT 117 are the only ones I remember seeing with the shield mounted. I also remember seeing some late 77' Elco's with a 20mm shield mounted (I think PT 64 with RON 4 while at Moorhead City, NC)

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Apr 11, 2011 - 6:44am
Total Posts: 3089 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

Checked all my Elco Records and Elco notes, none of which talk about any report of rear shield being removed from the boats prior to exceptance from the Navy Department. As Ted mentioned, I too have photos of the boats with the shield attached doing time trials out in Newark Bay. I could not locate any photo's showing the splinter shield in place in any of my more then 500 photo's............Still the question burns in my mind, when and why did they remove them prior to being out in the Field.

Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Apr 11, 2011 - 7:41am
Total Posts: 3545 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am

There are a bunch of RON 16 items on eBay, including four photos of the commissioning ceremony - no shields on the 20mm.

[url]http://www.auctiva.com/hostedimages/showimage.aspx?gid=467821&image=464709539&images=464708599,464708633,464708677,464708746,464708804,464708903,464708955,464709026,464709108,464709179,464709280,464709367,464709457,464709539,464709608,464709678,464759080,464759125&formats=0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0&format=0[/url]

Al Ross

Posted By: alross2 | Posted on: Apr 11, 2011 - 1:14pm
Total Posts: 994 | Joined: Oct 30, 2006 - 8:19pm

Al . . .

Nice find! Oh yeah, about that green overall color . . . . . [:-lookhappy-:]

Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Apr 11, 2011 - 3:03pm
Total Posts: 1488 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm

Didn't Mr. Greenjeans wear green overalls...?

Al

Posted By: alross2 | Posted on: Apr 11, 2011 - 3:55pm
Total Posts: 994 | Joined: Oct 30, 2006 - 8:19pm

Pages 80-81 of Frank Johnson's book show shields in place on one or more of the "zebra" boats, but this was of course Stateside...

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Apr 11, 2011 - 4:04pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

cute, Al....

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Apr 11, 2011 - 4:05pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

cute, Al....

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Apr 11, 2011 - 4:06pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

I was just amazed by the worker in the lower right hand corner of the picture. He's huge! The tops of everyone elses hard hats only come up to his chest.
Dave

David Waples

Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Apr 11, 2011 - 8:23pm
Total Posts: 1680 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm

Al,

Sorry--I'm afraid I don't have a higher resolution copy of the picture in question....

Gene K.

Posted By: comcardiv1 | Posted on: Apr 13, 2011 - 10:37am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Dave: I think the guy in the picture is standing on Frank's soapbox...

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Apr 13, 2011 - 3:01pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Dave;
I bet that huge guy was known as "BIG JOHN"!!
Take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Apr 15, 2011 - 6:05pm
Total Posts: 3089 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

I thought maybe he was the guy that flipped the boats over. :-)
Dave

David Waples

Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Apr 16, 2011 - 5:58am
Total Posts: 1680 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm

That guy would later go on to play "LURCH" in the hit series The Addams Family.

Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Apr 16, 2011 - 9:11am
Total Posts: 3545 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am

Ahoy there mates.

It's nice to know that the 20 mm splinter shield was often removed. That makes it a lot easier to build a 20 mm for my Lindberg 1/32 scale PT boats. I don't have to go to the trouble of scratch-building or thinning down those shields. It's nice to learn something new.

I'm trying to get back to working on my models but I have been finding that very hard to do since February 14 when my sister passed away.

I'll eventually get back to those boats because i want to show you guys the crew in action that I have planned for one of them.

Cheers from Peter

"Give me a faster PT boat for I'd like to get out of harm's way!"

Posted By: PeterTareBuilder | Posted on: Apr 19, 2011 - 6:54pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Pete

Although I am sure your heart is heavy from the loss of your Sister, model building might just be the ticket to take your mind off your sorrow. I find when something is bothering me, I start working on a PT BOAT PROJECT of some kind, and before you know it, several hours has passed. It's so good to hear from you again. Good luck on your upcoming projects. I know we will all be excited to see your progress...............

Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Apr 19, 2011 - 10:12pm
Total Posts: 3545 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am

Frank J Andruss Sr

Premium Member

Posted By: PeterTareBuilder | Posted on: Apr 20, 2011 - 7:24am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered