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ť Forum Name: PT Boats - General
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ť Topic: Mk XIII Torpedo Colors & Questions
http://www.ptboatforum.com/cgi-bin/MB2/netboardr.cgi?cid=101&fid=102&tid=1508

Had a friend ask me some torpedo questions & I had to tell him I really didn't know. Thanks to this forum though, I told him I could probably find out.
In general here were his questions:
1. Why are the bodies & war heads different colors?
2. In many photos the bodies appear to be black,
a. Why black, (or what color was it)?
b. why gloss?
c. Was it applied at the factory, or in field?
d. Was there a performance reason for it(efficiency in the water, etc.?), or was it mainly a visibility issue relating to night ops?
3. The warheads usually appear gray, were they, & why gray?
4. Later the bodies appear to be mainly natural metal.
a. What material is the body constructed of?
b. Why the switch to unpainted?
c. Why did they seem to have a yellow tint, were they clear coated, or was it due to the construction material weathering in field?
A lot of questions, I know, but things I've never really thought about, but am curious about now that they've been brought up.
As always thanks to everyone here.
Blake-

Posted By: Blake | Posted on: Oct 21, 2009 - 9:23am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Hi,

I can answer a few questions about the torpdoes. Mostly Mark 13. THe warheads were made from Phosphor bronze but were normally painted a primer grey color. The warheads were stored and shipped separately, and I have seen color film from Frank Andruss's DVD Called "PT Boats At War" Volume I and II, where the crewmen are using a crane to lift the warhead from a storeroom magazine deep below decks on a tender. Then they placed it on the deck and bolted it onto the air flask and afterbody. Then they picked up the assembled torpedo and loaded it onto the PT Boat Roll Off Rack. The color is very definitely primer grey in the color film. I asked these same WW2 PT Boat Torpedomen about if they painted the warheads, and was told "Why would we paint something that was likely to be launched the next mission?" So they as a general rule would not bother painting the warheads at all. Of course, I am sure there was at least one Boat Captain who wanted the torpedoes painted to match the camoflage scheme, but it must have been a decision that was left up to the preferences of the man in charge of each boat or perhaps even the Squadron CO. It seems unlikely that they would only paint the warhead and not the entire torpedo if they decided to paint it at all. It is hard to stop painting when you start and end up with a perfect edge at the joint. Also, the operation of the detonator could be affected if globs of excess paint were to enter the little paddlewheel located on the bottom of the warhead assembly. IF they were painting the warhead with camo colors, they would have to mask over the detonator assembly to keep it from being painted by accident.

The afterbody is made of steel. The steel was rubbed down often especially just after a patrol with "Crotin Oil" which was the consistency of thin cosmoline, and was the same color as cosmoline. It was rubbed on to prevent corrosion. I was told this by Dick Lowe, a Torpedoman on PT323 and also by Beaty Lay a PT boat torpedoman on PT185. The old Mark 8 torpedoes had to be greased since they were inside the old torpedo tubes, So I imagine the afterbody of the Mark 8 was steel discolored by grease.

The warheads were never painted yellow. Only training heads were painted yellow in order to aid in recovery. Imagine what a target bullseye having four big yellow painted warheads would have been on the front lines! The photos showing yellow warheads were mostly all taken at Melville Training base, where they would have likely been training torpedoes.

Here is a photo of PT 309 loading a Mark 13 torpedo, even though it is a B&W picture I think you can sort of tell the aft part is not painted all all, and the warhead is grey. Jerry PT658 Portland OR
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/PT309loadingtorpedo.jpg[/image]

Another picture of PT131 showing bare unpainted after bodies and warheads.

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/PT-131.gif[/image]

Also I got the info about the warhead being made from Phosphor bronze from the Tech manual on Mk13 torpedoes and also it is mentioned in Naval Ordnance and Gunnery Volume I Naval Ordnance Chapter 12 Torpedoes posted online at HNSA Here is an excerpt from there:

"The Mark 15 type torpedo is provided with a Mark 17 war head. It is ogival in shape at its forward end, and cylindrical in its after part. A nose ring is provided at the forward end of the shell to facilitate handling. [b]The shell itself is made of phosphor bronze. Although the Mark 17 war head uses only an impact exploder at the present time, the use of phosphor bronze rather than steel makes it possible to use an influence exploder when necessary.[/b]

The high-explosive charge consists of more than 800 pounds of HBX. The lead ballast weight, mounted in the bottom of the war head shell, helps to control the trim of the torpedo and to minimize rolling.

A joint ring at the after end of the war head shell is drilled and tapped for the joint screws that secure the head to the air-flask section. The after end of the shell is closed by a bulkhead, which is bolted to a flange on the inner side of the joint ring. A gasket between the bulkhead and flange forms a watertight seal.

The exploder mechanism fits in a cavity in the bottom of the forward end of the war head. The exploder is mounted on a base plate, which is secured to the war head shell with screws. The base plate is curved to match the curvature of the war head."

Jerry Gilmartin

Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Oct 21, 2009 - 10:34am
Total Posts: 1498 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm

Hello,

Yes, ...

The warheads of the Mark XIII torpedoes used on PT boats were painted to match the base color of the camouflage measure which the boat wore or to match the area of the scheme that they were in front of.

They were yellow if they were practice torpedoes. Their bodies were whatever metal used to construct them and the propellers were a bronze color.

Garth

Posted By: TGConnelly | Posted on: Oct 21, 2009 - 11:05am
Total Posts: 287 | Joined: Dec 19, 2010 - 11:45pm

...But some warheads, like the Mark VIII's seen in PT 61's (and PT 109's, to starboard) tubes in Ken Prescott's color Kodachrome photos, were left unpainted Phosphor bronze...

Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Oct 21, 2009 - 12:07pm
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am

I was one of two torpedomen aboard P.T.242. I spent 13 months aboard and made 85 patrol missions of Jap held islands in the Solomons . We expended lots of ammunition and mortars but never fired a torpedo because we were fighting shore batteries and barges whose draft was not deep enough to use torpedos. Our old Mark 8's were greased and in the tubes. The tubes were camouflaged to match the boat. When we got Mark 13's we painted warhead and afterbody with black cosmoline to protect from rusting. On page 223 of "At Close Quarters" is a picture of our boat and you can see the Mark 13's are all black. I think the paint scheme was left up to the boat captains and squadron commanders.

C. J. Willis

Posted By: CJ Willis | Posted on: Oct 21, 2009 - 3:39pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Hi CJ!
So I would like to defer to CJ's memory if there is anything I said that seems to not agree with that. I looked on a website called Historylink101.com which has a picture evidently taken up at a Naval Air Station in Alaska. It is a COLOR Photograph of a Mark 13 torpedo. In the photo, you can clearly see the GREY warhead and the bare metal afterbody, (it sort of appears to be yellowish metal) which would subsequently be smeared with cosmoline juice once it was placed on the PT boat. I hope this helps, I have been looking for a color picture of the torpedos for a long time myself.
Jerry PT658 Portland, OR

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/mk13torpedocolor-2.jpg[/image]

Jerry Gilmartin

Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Oct 21, 2009 - 6:32pm
Total Posts: 1498 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm

When i built my model of the 495 i did a lot of research into how the torpedos looked and did a lot of experimenting to find ways to duplicate the look. As others have stated the warheads were brnze and the bodies steel. sometimes warheads were painted with camo paint and sometimes not. I have seen photos with the mk13s painted in camo patterns that match that of boat.

for my model I tried to depict a mix of colors to show some variety. Also, in the time period I was depicting, most boats carried only 2 fish as there were few chances to engage targets with torpedos and saving the weight of 2 was a benefit. On the day/night depicted, Surigao Strait in Oct '44, the boats were loaded with all 4 fish because they fully expected to engage warships, not barges.

What i did was paint the each of 3 warheads a diffent green shade and one in a grey. The photos do note pick up the slightly different shades of green very well. I masked off the warheads and painted the bodies with a metalizer steel and sealer. After dried I appied applied a thick wash ofblack and turpentine then removed most of it with a wide, dry brush. after this dried I added yellow food color to future flor polish and airprushed this over the bodies to try to give it the cosmoline look. the blash wash under it looked like black streaks or pigments in the cosmoline that i read was sometimes added to the cosmoline to reduce the shine and make the bodies look black. it was often streay. again the photos do not pick up the yellow, glossy cosmoline look very well unfortunately. In real life the yellow tint is more visible. For reference, the fish props are painted entirely with just the future floor polish with yellow food coloring. they just got more coats built up to deepen the color.

[url]http://www.modelshipwrights.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&req=viewarticle&artid=1578[/URL]

Posted By: ducati650 | Posted on: Oct 22, 2009 - 5:55am
Total Posts: 450 | Joined: Feb 19, 2007 - 10:01am

Ed

I forgot how wonderful that boat looked. You must be ready to donate it to my Exhibit by now (ha, ha.) Great shots by Jerry, which gives the rest of us a real time line look at what the torpedoes looked like. I think we might do something like this on the PT-374 project. You reading this Alex............................

Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Oct 22, 2009 - 6:15am
Total Posts: 3547 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am

I still say that the warheads were painted to match the base color of the scheme the boat wore or to match the area of the scheme they were in front of.

As to if the bodies were 'natural metal' or painted black? That seems to be up to the boat's crew.

Garth

Posted By: TGConnelly | Posted on: Oct 22, 2009 - 7:02am
Total Posts: 287 | Joined: Dec 19, 2010 - 11:45pm

Garth

You could be correct, as not all warheads in the War Zone were gray, and I would bet that at least some of the Skippers had the Crew paint the heads to match their boats color. Hmmm, interesting coversation. Now, where are all those Torpedomen that might know this answer.

Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Oct 22, 2009 - 8:36am
Total Posts: 3547 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am

Jerry,

Yes, it's gray.

But, what you've got to remember is that the photo was taken at an air station, not a PT base. I believe that naval aviation had different criteria for the color of warheads.

Also, and this is something which I'll admit that I am not 100% confident about, but did any of the boats assigned to the Aleutians have roll-off racks?

Garth

Hi CJ!
So I would like to defer to CJ's memory if there is anything I said that seems to not agree with that. I looked on a website called Historylink101.com which has a picture evidently taken up at a Naval Air Station in Alaska. It is a COLOR Photograph of a Mark 13 torpedo. In the photo, you can clearly see the GREY warhead and the bare metal afterbody, (it sort of appears to be yellowish metal) which would subsequently be smeared with cosmoline juice once it was placed on the PT boat. I hope this helps, I have been looking for a color picture of the torpedos for a long time myself.
Jerry PT658 Portland, OR

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/mk13torpedocolor-2.jpg[/image]

Jerry Gilmartin

Posted By: TGConnelly | Posted on: Oct 22, 2009 - 9:00am
Total Posts: 287 | Joined: Dec 19, 2010 - 11:45pm

Garth;
Not that I have seen, I believe the boats were modified after they left and went back to Seattle. However, I do have a photo of PT 223 RON 16 which is discribed as being in taken in the Aluetians, But I don't know.
The photo I have of PT 219 at Kodiak was taken prior to her loss on Sept 14,1943, and she has tubes.
Take care,
TED

Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Oct 22, 2009 - 9:34am
Total Posts: 3091 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am

I'll take a shot at these questions, remember it has been a long time ago:
The bodies and warheads were different colors because they were made by separate manufacturers and were for general purpose. Some went to aircraft, some to us and we heard that some subs carried a few for close-in attacks. Also not all warheads were the same ( different composition for different purposes.) They were fitted to the body when being sent to the PT's. Color was unimportant and many crews repainted them to suit their fancy. The bodies were mostly black or dark green, but there was a lot of "personalizing" done. They had to be very dark so as to not be visible in moonlight. Gloss was seldom used due to reflections. Factory supplied torpedoes were usually bare steel covered with protective "varnish". Newly installed torpedoes were usually repainted (especially when another boat said they were visible). When torpedoes were carried in tubes, they couldn't be seen and could have been any color even white. But when they were mounted in the open, crew worried about gloss and glare. I think warheads we used came from the states in gray color. That was OK so not all were repainted. The later bodies were bare metal with the coating of "varnish". Probably just a cost concern. I believe the bodies were mostly sheet steel but contained a lot of cast assemblies. The yellow tint was the color of the "Varnish" they used.

Posted By: BobPic | Posted on: Oct 22, 2009 - 12:56pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

In New Guinea the warheads were usually painted green to match the jungle camo. Most were one color. We used paint brushes so the risk of clogging the impeller with paint did not exist. Regarding the boats in Alaska, I do not know the color used on the boats. It surely was not green. Did a gray warhead match the paint on the boat? Cosmoline or a similar protective material was used on the afterbody. This covered the shiny metal and gave it a brown appearance.

Posted By: QM | Posted on: Oct 22, 2009 - 5:38pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

That's great information gentlemen. I remember reading somewhere that boats had warheads with different colors. Your explanations help us understand why.
Thanks!
Dave

David Waples

Posted By: David Waples | Posted on: Oct 22, 2009 - 7:36pm
Total Posts: 1680 | Joined: Jan 2, 2007 - 9:55pm

Thanks Bobpic and QM, it is nice to get the opinions and memories from the men who were there!

Garth, to answer your question I dont think they had Roll Off Racks installed on any of the RON13 or RON16 boats until they returned to Seattle from Alaska.

I am not so willing to believe that just because the photo was not taken at a PT Boat Base the color scheme was not similar to what was out there. The warheads appear to have been painted grey at the factory, and just because this particular photo was taken at a Naval Air Station does not change the overwhelming likelihood that most certainly the warheads were grey when delivered to whoever was going to use them. If the PT Boat crews wanted to paint them I am sure that was done, but the original color would most likely have been grey.
I think Bobpic and QM and CJ answered the questions.

By the way, this question reminds me of the INFAMOUS "What color was PT109?" discussion that we had on this forum a couple of months back. I think the answer was the same, you can pick a color scheme and certainly there was at least one PT boat that may have done it that way. It was up to the boat Captain. So green, grey, bronze or white or yellow warheads, bare steel or blackened or yellow or cosmoline afterbodies, painted or unpainted, it seems that some of each was done depending on who you were and where you were stationed. I personally think the way Ed (Ducati) did his model torpedoes looks great, with different colored warheads and appearances. I am sticking to grey warheads on my own Italieri PT596 model. I like to believe the 2 color recordings--both the photo and the Movie that Frank Andruss sells (Pt Boats at War Parts 1 and 2) which show the grey primer painted warheads being loaded onto an 80 foot Elco boat in the Pacific. As a result, I painted my warheads 2 different shades of grey. But certainly as QM said, on his boat, they painted their warheads green with brushes, and also same for the entire Squadron of boats. So a little bit of both sounds like the way it must have been! Jerry

Here is a picture of my model PT596. I dedicated the model to her former XO and one of our crewmen on PT658 Bob Hostetter.

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/JerrysModelPT596.jpg[/image]

Jerry Gilmartin

Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Oct 25, 2009 - 9:39am
Total Posts: 1498 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm

So, yeah, ...

I'm guessing that the warheads of the torpedoes on the boats in the Aleutians would be what? Some sort of red or that bronze color that gentleman alluded to earlier?

Garth

Red is unlikely, as it is highly visible at sea. From the specs book for PT 565-624, p.14: "No red paint shall appear topsides."

Al Ross

Posted By: alross2 | Posted on: Oct 25, 2009 - 1:27pm
Total Posts: 994 | Joined: Oct 30, 2006 - 8:19pm

Garth
Actually, the Bureau of Ordnance dictated the colors of ordnance, not the Branch/Arm using the ordnance. This was to maintain commonality, avoid confusion and prevent accidents. Further, munitions were generally painted at the plant prior to delivery. This would prevent a live warhead being mistaken for a practice warhead and vice versa. According to a Great Uncle who was a WW2 Sub Captain,Torpedo warheads were interchanged between the PT Boats, Submarines, and Naval Aviation.
Jim

Posted By: PT Modeler | Posted on: Oct 9, 2014 - 4:44pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

Garth
OOPs, I forgot to mention that AFTER the Munitions were delivered to the end user, variations in colors did occur as many boats repainted the torpedoes. But my point was and is, that aside from certain tactical needs - such as boat crews repainting the exposed torpedoes so they wouldn't stand out, the location of a warhead was irrelevant to its color.
Jim

Posted By: PT Modeler | Posted on: Oct 9, 2014 - 4:53pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

I seem to remember the 155 boat had a FACE painted on at least one of their fish, so I think there must have been some slack cut by various skippers.......

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Oct 9, 2014 - 5:57pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

[URL=http://s183.photobucket.com/user/willday6/media/PT-15510a_zps7ae7dd35.jpg.html][image]http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x164/willday6/PT-15510a_zps7ae7dd35.jpg[/image][/URL]

Will

Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Oct 9, 2014 - 10:24pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered

PT Modeler,
Wow talk about reviving a long dead conversation! Since this thread was posted, I had the opportunity to wire wheel and repaint a Full Size Mark 13 torpedo that we obtained from the Keyport WA Naval Undersea Museum back in about 2010. During the refurbishment and repair, while I was wire wheeling the torpedo warhead, I noticed it was a dull grey underneath. Then the dull grey metallic coating was able to be removed in spots where I concentrated the wire wheel for a long time. I later found out that this was a thin plating of Cadmium, evidently the military has used cadmium plating for years to protect critical parts of weapons from corrosion. It is like galvanizing with zinc only a much higher quality. These Mk13 warheads are all grey because they were all plated with cadmium, Hence no need to paint them, unless the boat captains just wanted to in order to match their camo scheme. The TM's I talked to would often smear thinned down cosmoline-like substance onto the torpedo after body sections since they were made from steel. Also the Yellow Warheads are painted Yellow to denote a Practice Warhead. Anyway just thought you would benefit from those discoveries I made back 4 years ago.

This shows the bare metal of the body and the cad plating on the warhead. There is no paint on either in this shot since i had spent the last few days removing it with a wire wheel

[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Jerry%20Gilmartin/DSC01867.jpg[/image]

Another view of the cad plated warhead and the contrast to the bare steel body. I had just sprayed some clear coat over it to prevent rusting after I flapper-wheeled the body
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Jerry%20Gilmartin/DSC01859.jpg[/image]

Aint she purty!
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Jerry%20Gilmartin/DSC01863.jpg[/image]

Alvin Hansens shot from Samar
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Jerry%20Gilmartin/ptcloseupofgunandtorpedo1.jpg[/image]

PT150 color shot from Bob Weise
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Jerry%20Gilmartin/WilfredWoodlell.jpg[/image]

Jerry Gilmartin
PT658 Crewman
Portland OR

Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Oct 9, 2014 - 10:33pm
Total Posts: 1498 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm