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» Forum Name: PT Boats - General
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» Topic:
RON 10 ZEBRA STRIPES TO SOLID COLOR
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Hello everybody-
I know that this question has been kicked about on this board once before. But I'm going to aks it once again.
Did any of the RON-10 boats which were orginally zebra striped retain their stripes until the end of the war or were they all repainted in the field?
In Frank Johnson's book there is a shot of the 169 boat in black and white in what I would say is solid green.
The reason for my question is that I have seen many photos of RON-10 boats in orginal zebra stripe camofladge and later in solid green!
Any RON-10 vets out there?
Thanks for any help on theese questions, folks!
Frank Ryczek, Jr.
Modeler/Friend RON-!0 PT-169 " ZEBRA SNAFU "
HIGH TIDES ALWAYS!
YOUR FRIEND THROUGH SCALE SHIP MODELING AND PT BOAT HISTORY!
Posted By: FRANK | Posted on: Apr 1, 2009 - 7:50am
Total Posts: 349 | Joined: Oct 7, 2007 - 2:09pm
They were repainted in the field at some point Frank. That scheme did not work in the Solomons and it was too high maintainence to keep up.
Posted By: TGConnelly | Posted on: Apr 1, 2009 - 8:56am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Plain and Simple, it is UGLY. I do not know what the heck they were thinking when they came up with that paint scheme. I know it met with limited success, but can you imagine having to repaint this boat, not to mention being the butt of many off colored jokes from other crews. It would have taken the crew a month to repaint the boat.
Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Apr 1, 2009 - 10:15am
Total Posts: 3544 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am
Garth & Frank-
Thanks for the super quick responce fellas!
That zebra stripe camo that was used on the RON-10 boats first saw action during the First World War. The Germans were the first to use it on their aircraft. Every time the aircraft banked or changed course the intersecting lines changed the image and outlook of the plane on the ground and also in the air.
I have read that an English battalion was almost taken out entirely by a zebra striped Fokker Tri-plane. A private told his commander that there is a strange aircraft above. The commander said not to worry it's just a flock of bird. Well, that flock of birds came roaring out of the clouds with guns blazing and scraffed half of the battlion.
Could it be that Elco thought the same would work on the RON-10 ELCO's.??? Yeah, I have to agree with both of you guys, they did stick out like a sore thumb from the other boats and I heard they were jinxed from the onset.
They may be UGLY FRank A. but there are still some of us out there who love the zebra's. Count me as being one of those!
Thanks for sharing guys!
Frank Ryczek, Jr.
Modeler/Friend RON-10 PT-169 " ZEBRA SNAFU "
HIGH TIDES ALWAYS!
YOUR FRIEND THROUGH SCALE SHIP MODELING AND PT BOAT HISTORY!
Posted By: FRANK | Posted on: Apr 1, 2009 - 10:32am
Total Posts: 349 | Joined: Oct 7, 2007 - 2:09pm
The zebra boat I recall seeing was the 167 at Rendova the next day after it was hit through the bow by a Jap flying torpedo. We were at Rendova in early November 1943 and tied up at the dock where they were tied. We were more amazed at the torpedo damage than we were of the paint job.
C. J. Willis
Posted By: CJ Willis | Posted on: Apr 1, 2009 - 11:44am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
As a crew mwmber on the 167, I can say that all ron 10 boats were painted with zebra stripes until after the Japs did a number on the 167. Skipper Berlin realized that the stripes made the boat glow in the moonlight (he was reminded often enough by other boat crews).. He, with the base commander's approval decided to have the crew repaint the boat with whatever green paint they could find. The other boats followed and eventually all boats were good ol green.
Posted By: BobPic | Posted on: Apr 1, 2009 - 12:55pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Bob's phrase "whatever paint they could find" should be born in mind by evey modeler trying to find the "real color" of boats Out In The Area....
Will
Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Apr 1, 2009 - 1:32pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Will,
I agree 100% with you on that. BUT I'm criticized for saying that.
Garth
Posted By: TGConnelly | Posted on: Apr 1, 2009 - 3:10pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
C.J.,
I am very interested in hearing any details you can remember of seeing the 167 at Rendova after it was holed by the torpedo. You said you were docked there next to her -- do you remember what island you were docked on? Bau Island? Lumbari Island? What were they doing to the 167 at the time? Did you talk with any of the crew about what happened?
The photo below was apparently taken right after the incident. My copy is not very clear unfortunately. Does that look like the 167 as you saw her? Does it look like Rendova?
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/G%20R%20Powell/image001.jpg[/image]
This photo shows the hole in the bow. It also shows the missing day cabin structure, which resulted from the first time that the 167 was torpedoed -- while she was riding a cradle on the Stanvac Manila.
G R Powell
Posted By: G R Powell | Posted on: Apr 1, 2009 - 4:30pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Hey Bob,
I dont know if you were aware of this, but a shipmate of yours on the PT167 had an article and video done about him and his experiences on board PT 167. It is available for you to watch and read on the Clevelland Plain Dealers website. He is a former motor mac George Holasek. Click on this link to see it for yourself. [url]http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/01/george_holasek_85_recalls_time.html[/url] He also tells a story about the only casualty on the boat right near the end of the war.
Jerry
PT 658 restoration crew, Portland, OR
Jerry Gilmartin
Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Apr 1, 2009 - 5:30pm
Total Posts: 1486 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm
The zebra stripes were used effectively on some ships. The pattern can create doubt as to the heading of the ship. It could have the same effect on a PT in daylight. However it was worthless in our operations in the South Pacific and the Southwest Pacific where we operated mostly at night. We wanted to be as invisible as possible.
Regarding the colors used on the boats, they may have departed from the states with a standard shade or shades of green. When repainted in the field we used, as someone said above, whatever was available. There was little if any measuring to get a certain shade of green. We just poured and mixed. Also I believe that some plain black paint was used as part of the camo pattern.
Posted By: QM | Posted on: Apr 1, 2009 - 6:47pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
G.R. That certainly looks like the 167 that I saw. The hole was through the crews quarters about 2 feet above the water line on both sides. It didn't damage the deck above. There were clothes scattered around in the crews quarters that could be seen through the hole. We found out from some of the crew that a Jap plane had dropped a torpedo and it had gone through the boat before it was armed. Bob Pickens can give you more details I am sure. I don't recall the names of the islands where the dock was located but it was at the first location at Rendova because we were back down there again in January 1944 and the dock and base had been moved to a different location. When we saw the 167 we were just at Rendova overnight on our way from Tulagi to Vella La Vella.
C. J. Willis
Posted By: CJ Willis | Posted on: Apr 1, 2009 - 7:37pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
I am curious here as to the PT-167 ? Was it damaged or sunk ? I was aware of the PT-117 & PT-164 that were damaged and sunk in Rendova, but what was the status of 167 ?
Regards
Posted By: Shaneo2 | Posted on: Apr 1, 2009 - 7:42pm
Total Posts: 147 | Joined: Apr 17, 2008 - 10:19pm
PT 167 was damaged but not sunk. It was soon back in service. Bob Pickett helped repair and repaint it.
Thanks, C.J., for your helpful recollections.
Does anyone have a clearer copy of the photo I posted? Or know who has the original?
G R Powell
Posted By: G R Powell | Posted on: Apr 2, 2009 - 5:19am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Hello everyone-
Just a word of thanks to all of you who responded to my post!
There is a really neat shot of the 167 showing a close-up view of the holed through bow section where the Jap torpedo went through her in Frank Johnson's book on WW II PT boats. I don't own a scanner, but if anyone out there has this book in their collection, can they please post that shot here! Thanks guys!
It's nice to know and hear from those guys who were in Ron-10 regarding the "whatever" color green that was used to re-paint the boats. From a scale modelers standpoint, that's a big relief, especially for guys like me who are color blind in red and green areas.
You fella's never fail to amaze me with your replies! This message board is the absolute "best" historical site on the web! Bar none!
Thanks again to all!
Frank Ryczek, Jr.
Modeler/Friend RON-10 PT- 169 " ZEBRA SNAFU "
HIGH TIDES ALWAYS!
YOUR FRIEND THROUGH SCALE SHIP MODELING AND PT BOAT HISTORY!
Posted By: FRANK | Posted on: Apr 2, 2009 - 7:25am
Total Posts: 349 | Joined: Oct 7, 2007 - 2:09pm
Mr. Powell,
About that photo you posted here? If you look closely sir, you can barely see the dayroom - it was not damaged at all. It's just too dark to see it clearly.
It also seems that the scheme was beginning to be overpainted or that it was just scruffed up ...........
I think it was interesting that the boat had roll-off torpedo racks and a 37mm gun, I had always thought that scheme was discontinued while the boats still had their tubes and 'basic' armament packages. You learn something new every day.
To Jerry Gilmartin, I clicked on that link for the crewmember interview, and the second I did - my computer froze.
Garth
Posted By: TGConnelly | Posted on: Apr 2, 2009 - 7:36am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
G.R. and all,
As previously stated, there is a clear photo of the damage to PT 167's bow from the torpedo in the book "At Close Quarters - PT Boats in the United States Navy" by Robert J. Bulkley (page 142), and an enlarged version of the same photo in "United States PT-Boats of World War II In Action" by Frank D. Johnson (page 105).
The reference material states that the 167's torpedo-through-the-bow incident occurred on November 5, 1943, when the Ron 10 boats were operating out of Cape Torokina. I guess the boat would have returned to Rendova, the largest base back down the line, for repair.
The photo posted shows the boat with Mark XIII torpedoes in roll-off racks. I think the November '43 period was too early for that configuration. I think the Solomons PTs still would have had their torpedo tubes and Mark VIII fish at that time(?).
I've also seen several forward-area (b&w) photos of the (originally) white stripes on the zebra-striped boats' paint jobs overpainted in a darker color, with the black stripes obviously remaining. I would think the "darker color" was green...
Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Apr 2, 2009 - 8:53am
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am
Hi Garth,
I am sorry for freezing your computer. It works fine for me. I may suggest an alternate way to find the article and video. I just type the following search phrase onto "Google" "PT 167 George Holasek" and it was the first thing that pops up. I hope this will work for you. The internet may have been working funny yesterday it being April Fools Day and all. I hope this alternate way will work on your computer. It is really a quite good interview. He tells of being on the boat when it was hit by the torpedo.
PS. I also have read another account of this same attack from a different perspective. It was printed in the "LCI Item" newsletter, since at the time, the PT 167 along with a few other PT boats were protecting a group of LCI (landing craft infantry) during transit. One of the 25 Jap torpedo bombers in the attacking group dropped a torpedo into the LCI, and it hit above the water line and went into the engine room. It did not explode, and the crew abandoned ship, onto a nearby PT Boat. (The LCI has 25 crewmen) Then they asked for a few volunteers to go onboard and push the torpedo up and out of the engineroom. It had come to rest up against one of their diesel main engine banks. The japs claimed to have sunk 3 aircraft carriers and 2 cruisers later that day on Tokyo Rose the story goes. I think the book "At Close Quarters" also has an account of this event. Pretty amazing isnt it?
Jerry PT 658 restoration crew, Portland OR
Jerry Gilmartin
Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Apr 2, 2009 - 9:38am
Total Posts: 1486 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm
GR Powell,
Thanks for the information on the 167. About the photo on page #1, the Island in the background is not Lumbari- of that I have no doubt. I also doubt if it is any of the other barrier Islands in Rendova Harbor. The tree line on those Islands (being mainly flat), have a almost uniformity of tree height across the length of the Island- the photo does not reflect that.
Could the background be Rendova Is. ? Possibly, but the area were the Americans were encamped and established was primarly on the NW side of the Harbor (main Island). Most of this area is coconut plantation, with a gradual rise well beyond the water front....there is an exception of a hill towards the North of the plantation which had 155mm (?) guns on it.
Google Earth gives idea of the Harbor. If you search USMC operations online in the Central Solomons (Operation Toenails), there are some photos of LST's going through the pass, troops landing ashore. One of the most interesting shows a LCI, with either a Higgins land craft, or a PT boat tied up on the Starboard quarter- it is hard for me to make out details on my laptop.
I do not think, but cannot say for %100 percent certainty that the photo was taken in Rendova Harbor, but I will look around again later this year.
Regards
Posted By: Shaneo2 | Posted on: Apr 2, 2009 - 10:18am
Total Posts: 147 | Joined: Apr 17, 2008 - 10:19pm
[IMaGe]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Gary%20Szot/PT167.jpg[/IMaGe]
[IMaGe]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Gary%20Szot/PT-167.jpg[/IMaGe]
Posted By: Gary Szot | Posted on: Apr 2, 2009 - 11:28am
Total Posts: 193 | Joined: Feb 12, 2007 - 1:00pm
Hi Gary-
Many thanks for posting the close up bow shot of the 167 boat after in inflicted damage. That's one amazing shot!
Frank Ryczek, Jr.
Modeler/Friend RON-10 PT-169 " ZEBRA SNAFU "
HIGH TIDES ALWAYS!
YOUR FRIEND THROUGH SCALE SHIP MODELING AND PT BOAT HISTORY!
Posted By: FRANK | Posted on: Apr 2, 2009 - 11:34am
Total Posts: 349 | Joined: Oct 7, 2007 - 2:09pm
You're welcome Frank. Is it true that a torpedo will not arm itself on any non-metallic surface?
Posted By: Gary Szot | Posted on: Apr 2, 2009 - 11:41am
Total Posts: 193 | Joined: Feb 12, 2007 - 1:00pm
I am pretty sure a torpedo will arm itself after the props turn a certain number of revolutions, which is why a PT Boat Crew would do everthing they could to jam things into a spinning torpedo prop that got hung up in a tube to stop it...............
Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Apr 2, 2009 - 12:00pm
Total Posts: 3544 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am
I guess I should have said detonate rather than arm. The torpedos had a magnetic detonator that would sense a ship's hull. Since PT's are wooden it would not sense it and plow through the boat and out the other side.
Good article on the Mark XIV torpedo
http://www.military.com/Content/MoreContent?file=PRtorpedo
Posted By: Gary Szot | Posted on: Apr 2, 2009 - 12:14pm
Total Posts: 193 | Joined: Feb 12, 2007 - 1:00pm
Hello again Gary and Frank,
I am unsure about the detonator on Japanese torpedoes (I suspect they were very similar), but I am certain that on American torpedoes they were not possible to "detonate" unless there was forward motion through the water far enough to arm the detonator. (about 200-300 yards) A little paddle wheel inside the detonator is turned by the passing water, and this action extends the detonator (fulminate of mercury) out of its protective shield, cocks the spring loaded firing mechanism, and releases the Flop Ring (Firing Ring) so that it will be able to release the cocked firing mechanism hammer. All of these actions must be complete before detonation is possible.
So the answer to your question would be NO.
The story of torpedoes engines being stopped by stuffing rags, etc. into their propellers was done to prevent the turbines which spin at terrific speed from flying apart and becoming a fragmentation hazard. When the engine is running without the resistance provided by the water, (for example a torpedo stuck inside the tube) the turbine will very quickly reach a speed that would cause the turbine to fly apart into little pieces.
Here is a diagram from the US Naval Weapons Manual that explains the operastion of the detonator used on our Mark 8 and Mark 13 torpedoes.
I hope this is not too convoluted of an explanation. Jerry
Diagram of US Navy Mark 2 Detonator
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/00000017.jpg[/image]
Explanation of Operation
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/00000018.jpg[/image]
Jerry Gilmartin
Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Apr 2, 2009 - 12:28pm
Total Posts: 1486 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm
Frank: On the bottom side up near the nose of the torpedo was a small opening with an impeller inside. This was the arming device. When the torpedo was fired or rolled off the rack, the cover was jerked off this opening allowing the impeller to rotate as the torpedo was going through the water. The torpedo had to go about 50 yards for the impeller to make the necessary rotations to arm. The torpedo was then armed and would explode upon hitting any kind of surface wood, metal or otherwise. When we got Mark X111 torpedos we were cautioned to be sure the covers were on these impeller openings because if the cover was off they could be armed by spray from the boat when underway.
C. J. Willis
Posted By: CJ Willis | Posted on: Apr 2, 2009 - 12:29pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Me again!
I read CJ's reply and if he says 50 yards I would defer to his memory. I sure would like to get a couple of those arming impeller covers for our boats torpedoes! My 200-300 yard figure came from guesswork and looking at our detonator on the PT 658. Thanks CJ for your comment.
Hey GARY, by the way, you are speaking about detonators armed with a MAGNETIC exploder. I am 90% sure that Jap torpedoes never had magnetic exploders on their air dropped torpedoes, just contact type like ours.
Jerry Gilmartin
Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Apr 2, 2009 - 1:00pm
Total Posts: 1486 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm
Thanks for the clarification Jerry. Check out this web page for the Torpedos the Japanese used during WWII
http://www.combinedfleet.com/torps.htm
Posted By: Gary Szot | Posted on: Apr 2, 2009 - 1:23pm
Total Posts: 193 | Joined: Feb 12, 2007 - 1:00pm
Jerry: In torpedo school I was told how many revolutions was required for the device to arm but that has been 65 years ago. Can't remember!!!
C. J. Willis
Posted By: CJ Willis | Posted on: Apr 2, 2009 - 3:29pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
There have been several intersting issues raised about PT 167:
1. Does the photo I posted show a damaged day room cabin?
Garth, you may be right that the cabin and roof does appear in this photo, but it is not clear to me. Take at look at this enlargement and tell me what you think.
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/G%20R%20Powell/167cabinblow-up.jpg[/image]
If you look at the height of the port splash shield and then look aft toward the torpedo there appears to be no cabin there. You can see the starboard torpedo. The day room roof was raised just barely above the deck level.
According to 167 CQM Francis Mackey the boat had "no dayroom superstrucure but all flat deck aft." KNIGHTS OF THE SEA, p. 303. Bob Pickett tells me the same thing. The superstructure was smashed when the 167 was extricated from the sinking Stanvac Manila. Here is what I was told by another crew member: "She looked funny with a flat deck instead of a dayroom. The base carpenters said they could not restore the dayroom because it involved factory formed ribs which were critical for new boats. So they "roofed" it over with plain tongue and groove 2x6's. It reduced the headroom in the already low room to about 3 feet as I recall. It was useless for human occupancy and we used it to store extra ammo and such. It was not waterproof even though they tried a couple of times."
2. Could this photo have been taken in November of 1943 since it has roll off racks and not tubes?
If the photo shows the hole in the bow then it had to be taken in November of 1943. Agains the photo is not real clear but it appears to show the hole. Do you see the refelction in the water through the hull? If that is the hole then it would date roll off racks to Novembner of 1943. Here is the cropped photo:
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/G%20R%20Powell/167bowdamage.jpg[/image]
Don't those zebra stripes look bent to you?
Is this photo at Rendova? C.J. remembers seeing the boat at Rendova after it was hit. Francis Mackey says that the 167 was headed to Rendova for engine repair, in company with an LST and an LCI, when the attack occurred. KNIGHTS OF THE SEA, p. 303.
Jerry, you mentioned an article in "LCI Items." Would you mind sneding me a copy?
Thanks all for your interetsing input.
G R Powell
Posted By: G R Powell | Posted on: Apr 2, 2009 - 6:58pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
GR Powell,
If you want more information on Rendova Harbor, feel free to email me through this sites redirect...and I presume it will go on to my email ? If you are in the US I will grab my chart and maybe this Sunday the 5th, I can go through some information with you via the phone. Up to you.
Do you have more photo's you have in question from Rendova Harbor ?
I left some comments about the Rendova Harbor further back in this lists of replies.
I am in the Pacific time zone USA right now
Regards
Posted By: Shaneo2 | Posted on: Apr 3, 2009 - 10:28am
Total Posts: 147 | Joined: Apr 17, 2008 - 10:19pm
GR;
You are correct in every aspect!
The damaged photo of 167 underway at slow speed that you posted is mine. That is my hand writing at the top of the photo. As you can see Alyce Mary Guthrie's hand writing is on the side "PT 107x4".
I found this photo at PTHQ in Dec 1997, when I was searching through the photo files, That is also my blue pen mark, they originally had this photo in a file labeled PT 107!
The SO radar mast is folded down! And for all those in the other post about the other PT boat skippered by that funny sounding Red Sox fan...notice were Ted Berlin is flying the flag!
The photo of 167 with the SCR 517(Beehive) radar mast was taken near the ELCO factory prior to shipment, as this is also my photo.
167 was damaged in the sinking of the Stanvac Manila. Some of the ships rigging, got caught on the boat and she sank down with the ship, some how her boyancy worked in her favor breaking what ever restraints were still secure and she shot back up to the surface. when she resurfaced her dayroom was ripped off, and everything aft of that was either gone or damaged. Probably by some rigging cable(s) near the foremast.Or as stated in the discription, the foremast itself. PT 172 was literally thrown off the ship and broke her stem as the ship rolled to starboard, bow up.
PT 167 went out on patrols with a plywood sheets over the dayroom "hole" when she first went out, then the tougue and grove 2x6's were made up by base force and as you can see a SO radar mast was mounted. Also notice the aft 20mm, that does not look like a MK 4 mount to me. She finished the war with this dayroom repair configuration.
Around Jan 1945, she got a new SO-A radar mast.
Hell, all we have to do is ask Bob Pickett! He was there. So was George Holasek.
Go to Gene's website, go to misc views page two. Just look at the photo of Ted Berlin underway on 167 in Jan 1944, I don't think Ted was 11 feet tall. Look how the top of his head is even with the SO radar mast cross brace. On a normal boat Ted would have to be 11 feet tall for his head to be even with this brace, since a normal dayroom top was 3 1/2'-4' off the deck. Mike Berlin(Ted's son) used to post on the board, I also had his personal e-mail address, but it has been deactivated and I can't get in touch with him now.
Well thats for now,
Take care,
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Apr 3, 2009 - 12:05pm
Total Posts: 3071 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Jerry & CJ
Jerry, I am pretty sure you had posted the inner workings of the Torpedo once before, so I thank you for the tecnical data. CJ, thanks for your imput as well. It would seem that the torpedo that holed PT 167, did not reach the required number of revolutions to explode on impact. It would make sence that the torpedo would explode no mater what it hit, steel, wood, concrete, the beach., once it became armed.
Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Apr 3, 2009 - 2:24pm
Total Posts: 3544 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am
Frank: At torpedo school in Keyport, WA. we would fire the mark 8 torpedoes out of a tube at the dock. They would would make their run down Puget Sound. At the end of the run air was injected in what normally was the warhead - the torpedo would then surface. We would retrieve them in a boat - bring them back to the base. It was part of our training to overhaul these in the shop to learn the inside workings of the torpedo so they could be fired again.
C. J. Willis
Posted By: CJ Willis | Posted on: Apr 3, 2009 - 3:08pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
CJ
I wonder how many of them are still at the bottom of the bay. I have a friend of mine who is a diver and has done extensive work in Narragansett Bay, just outside the cove that was once the MTBSTC. He has located several dummy torpedoes, and has the location of them. The big question, what the heck would I do with one...........
Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Apr 3, 2009 - 3:25pm
Total Posts: 3544 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am
Frank;
what would you do with one? Hmmmmmmmmmm! You could have one you could display, then if there are more than 12 that have been located I know of a place that could use them in the future, are you getting my drift? Respond off line if you would.
Take care,
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Apr 3, 2009 - 5:17pm
Total Posts: 3071 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Ted,
Thanks very much for your good work in locating and properly labeling this important photo of PT 167. Do you think it was taken by the same photographer who took the photo shown on page 142 of AT CLOSE QUARTERS? I see that picture is cited in the book with this reference number: 80-G-650957. I assume that means this is a US Navy photo. If so, I wonder if the photo you found in the 107 file at HQ might also be a US Navy photo. I would like to find the original.
Also, where did you find the details on the Stanvac Manila sinking? That is the most detailed explanation of the damage that I have read.
Shaneo, I don't have any Rendova photos other than ones that have already been posted. You can email me at Gerald_Powell@baylor.edu
G R Powell
Posted By: G R Powell | Posted on: Apr 4, 2009 - 5:45am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
GR
It is a combination of talking/writting with veterans of the 167 boat and the written discription in At Close Quarters. I did all this research before and after doing my 1/32nd scale model of 167 in 1992. Check out my model in my portion of the photobucket account, however, I did not know the dayroom was not fully repaired until last year.
take care,
TED
Posted By: TED WALTHER | Posted on: Apr 4, 2009 - 8:01am
Total Posts: 3071 | Joined: Oct 16, 2006 - 7:42am
Ted,
Your model of the 167 is very nice. Am I correct that it is modeled to the time the 167 was in New Guinea -- maybe spring and summer of 1944?
I got a photocopy from Alyce of the photo of 167 you found at HQ. It verifies that the photo was taken at Rendova and that it was taken the day after the torpedo attack. It also identifies the person who contributed the photo. Did you ever communciate with this person? I would like to track down the original (and perhaps clearer) photo. Do you have any current contact information on the Cooks?
This is a scan of a xerox of a copy, but it at least shows the writing:
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/G%20R%20Powell/167scans2.jpg[/image]
G R Powell
Posted By: G R Powell | Posted on: Apr 5, 2009 - 6:39am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
The reason that the radar mast is not showing in the picture of the damaged 167 is that part of the damage was the removal of the mast by the Jap plane. The best story of the Stanvac Manilla sinking is the story of PT 171 at http://www.pt171'org/PT171/writeups/stanvac.htm .I was not there but us later crew heard the storry many times and this article is just like it was told.
Posted By: BobPic | Posted on: Apr 5, 2009 - 7:58am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
OK, we now know Mark XIII torpedoes and roll-off racks were present in the Solomons by November of 1943...(?)
Posted By: Drew Cook | Posted on: Apr 5, 2009 - 1:33pm
Total Posts: 1306 | Joined: Oct 19, 2006 - 10:44am
Crew,
I found a little background info about the attack on PT 167,LCI 70 and LCT 68 Jerry
Here is LCI(G) 70
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/LCI70gunboat.jpg[/image]
Here is the hole made by torpedo
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/LCI70torpedohole.jpg[/image]
Here is the torpedo after removed back at Torokina
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/LCI70Torpedoremoved.jpg[/image]
Accounts from Time Magazine and Samuel Eliot Morison
TIME, NOVEMBER 22, 1943
"How the Carriers were sunk"
The PT had an ugly duckling painted on the bow. The duckling pointed to itself with one wing and above was the legend, "Who, Me?" The skipper was Theodore Berlin, a slender, dark Reservist of 22 who had come to the Navy from the University of California at Los Angeles.
The Who, Me? PT 167 was mooching along in company with two landing craft (LCI(G) 70 and LCT 68) some 30 miles south of Empress Augusta Bay. One of the PT's three engines had burned out, but she could still keep up with her consorts. A gorgeous sunset was draining from the clouds and twilight was closing in. As TIME Correspondent William Chickering later got the story:
Fire and Fish. At 7:15 the lookout reported planes. Berlin started back toward the cockpit; it was already too late. The only thing he could do was lie down, so he stretched out on deck and calmly gave an order: "All right, general quarters." The port gunner, a blond youngster named Richard Dudziak, started to fire into the engine of an approaching plane. It looked like an American SBD but the location of two blue-burning exhausts meant a Jap torpedo plane. As the plane passed over, Skipper Berlin could almost reach and touch the red ball on the wings. One wing tip knocked off the Who, Me?'s antenna, and another scraped the forward gunner. The plane swept like a piece of paper into the darkening sea.
Berlin was up quickly. He took the wheel, drove the ship in a small, speedy circle. Other planes were coming in at the LCI (Landing Craft, Infantry). Its 20-mm. machine guns opened up and the first burst hit the belly of a plane which blew up above the Who, Me? and went on into the sea. Two others crashed; the burning planes lit the dusk.
In the excitement, hardly anyone realized that the Japs were launching torpedoes. Falling night was apparently playing tricks with Jap vision. The broad wake of a PT, plus the outline of the LCI, must have looked like bigger game. The torpedoes were launched too close to arm themselves and explode on impact. Four, possibly seven torpedoes were launched. One dolphined over the stern of the Who, Me?, another under the stern. (Meanwhile LCI 70 suffered from 4 torpedo attacks and one strafing run in 14 minutes. Owing to her shallow draft, three torpedoes passed harmlessly beneath her keel. One torpedo porpoised into the engineroom through the steel sides without-exploding but killing one man. The warhead slid off into the bread locker). It smashed instruments, and flying debris wounded two men.
The Who, Me? PT171 idled in the darkness, not sure where the other ships were. A red blinker flashed in the night; it was the LCI calling for aid. Skipper Berlin ran his ship alongside. After a hasty conference the LCI's skipper LTjg H.W. Frey ordered "abandon ship" and men poured over the side onto the Who, Me?'s flat wooden deck.
One of the Who, Me?'s crew looked over the side. Just below the gunner was a hole 9 ft. by 3. At the moment of the first attack a torpedo had passed clean through the Who, Me?'s bow. (Leaving its sheared off tail assembly as a souvenir) Below decks one of the crew found a torpedo's two-foot fin and rudder of fine stainless steel —it had sheered off the toilet seat from the crew's "head" and lodged in the crew's quarters.
"Damn Good Ship."
The Who, Me? seemed as crowded as Coney Island on a Sunday. Going by the crowd, slapping backs, was the husky gunnery officer of the LCI, Pete Kirille, once a professional ball player for the New York Yankees. Kirille looked over at the dark shadow of the LCI and said: "It's a damn good ship. I'm going to save her. I want five volunteers." He got more than that. Kirille and his volunteers climbed aboard the LCI and disappeared in the darkness. Meanwhile LCT 68 passed a line to LCI 70 and towed her back to Torokina. All the ships got to port. The next day the Tokyo radio screamed triumphantly that "one large carrier, one small carrier, two heavy cruisers and a destroyer" had been sunk off Bougainville.
[url]http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,851858-1,00.html[/url]
Account of incident from historynet .com
That sanguine report turned out to have been one of the most absurdly inaccurate of the Pacific War. In actuality, LCI(L)-70 and patrol torpedo boat PT-167 had been escorting LCT-68 back from the Treasury Islands when they came under attack about 28 miles southwest of Cape Tokorina. The wing of one low-flying B5N Kate Torpedo bomber had struck PT-167’s radio antenna, and it fell into the sea, leaving its unexploded torpedo imbedded in the boat’s bow. The PT boat’s 20mm guns sent a second B5N crashing in flames, so close that her crew was drenched by the splash. LCI(L)-70 underwent 14 minutes of attacks, but thanks to her shallow draft, three torpedoes passed harmlessly under her keel. A fourth porpoised and punched into the engine room, killing a crewman but failing to explode. Rear Admiral Theodore S. Wilkinson, commander of the III Amphibious Force, subsequently commended PT-167’s skipper Ensign Theodore Berlin for his courageous defense and concluded with the appraisal, ‘Fireplug Sprinkles Dog.’
[url]http://www.historynet.com/world-war-ii-raids-on-rabaul-in-november-1943.htm/4#hide[/url]
Jerry Gilmartin
Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Apr 5, 2009 - 3:23pm
Total Posts: 1486 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm
Here is the actual congratulatory message from Admiral Wilkinson. I don't know if Samuel Eliot Morison is referring to a different message when he quoted the fireplug quip, but it is not in this message. Thanks to Bob Pickett for providing this image.
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/G%20R%20Powell/NewImage.jpg[/image]
The panel discussion by Red Fay, Dick Keresey and Bill Battle, mentioned a short time ago in another thread, also discusses the torpedoing of the 167. Fay says that the skipper of the LCI was disciplined for wanting to abandon ship because of the dud torpedo that lodged in her engine room, but Pete Kirille was decorated for saving her. Great photos of the LCI and torpedo, Jerry.
G R Powell
Posted By: G R Powell | Posted on: Apr 5, 2009 - 3:54pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered