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» Forum Name: PT Boats - General
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» Topic:
Engine Idenity
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I was told this was PT 6 Engine Room. Now this was Higgins first built PT 6. Can any of you confirm this, or identify the engines. I am pretty sure they are Vimelert.
Thanks,
Frank
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/FrankAndruss/VimalertsPT6-1.jpg[/image]
Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Jan 9, 2009 - 11:49pm
Total Posts: 3547 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am
Frank , I just sent a couple of emails with some large attachments with info on Engine/Engine Room PT-6 (Prime). The engines might actually be Hall-Scott engines as used in early 70' Vosper MTB's 35, 36, 37, 38. Due to none delivery of the Vimalert Engines.
Dick . . .
Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Jan 10, 2009 - 12:46pm
Total Posts: 1489 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm
Dick, the more I look at the picture I am conveniced that this is an all metal boat. Maybe I am all wet here, but I do not think this is PT 5 or the first PT 6. Any thoughts guys..........
Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Jan 10, 2009 - 5:42pm
Total Posts: 3547 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am
I agree with you Frank. Definately all metal. What engines were in the PTF Nasty's?
Ray
Posted By: Ray Wilbur | Posted on: Jan 11, 2009 - 7:24am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Frank: I think you are right about it being a metal boat, maybe PT-8 with the original Allisons?
Will
Posted By: Will Day | Posted on: Jan 11, 2009 - 8:45am
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
I don't think PT-8,
I had seen a photo of the engine room for her when she was on eBay for sale and the engine room was much larger. This engine room really looks narrow and the walls seem to be at a very sharply canted angle. PT-5 and PT-6 did have a bulkhead access door to the engine room unlike other PT's. But their WT doors were offset off-center to starboard side this photo shows a center door. Got Me - well I've spend my last two cents, got to go.
Dick . . . .
Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Jan 11, 2009 - 12:22pm
Total Posts: 1489 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm
The PTFs (which were wood) had the huge Napier DELTIC diesels.
Posted By: alross2 | Posted on: Jan 11, 2009 - 1:47pm
Total Posts: 994 | Joined: Oct 30, 2006 - 8:19pm
Looks as though the exhaust is being vented to the sides of the Hull. We know that Higgins vented to the sides of the Hull. What other boats did. Mind you, this photo came to me in a bunch of photos marked Higgins PT 6. If you experts out there are confused, then nobody knows.....
Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Jan 11, 2009 - 2:32pm
Total Posts: 3547 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am
Hi Frank and Dick and AL and everyone else!
So I poured through my files and the Louisiana Digital Library [url]http://louisdl.louislibraries.org/[/url] and found some interesting stuff to answer these questions. Frank first of all, why do you always ask so many hard questions?
OK so here goes. To see these blueprints for yourself, just go the the Louisiana Digital Library, then under the heading Browse Collections by (in the top left hand side) click on the line labeled Collection Name. Then the next page comes up listing all the collections.
Scroll down until you see Higgins Industries and click on it.
Then Click on Browse Items in this Collection hypertext, and 32 pages of 639 numbered blueprints will be listed.
There are about 20 per page and 32 pages on the index.
I think Franks question is about a photo of the 76 foot Motor Torpedo Boat According to the blueprint named Inboard Profile and Arrangement It is listed as drawing 355 on page 18, and is dated 8-18-41. This is not PT5 or PT6. It shows the overhead and side views of the engineroom and the Watertight door is on the centerline of the forward bulkhead.
Several other blueprints to support this are #112 Cooling System for Vimalerts on PT5. listed on Page 6
#85 Center Engine Exhaust Pipe (apparently for 76 foot MTB) dated 6-30-41 on page 5.
#686 Vimalert Engine Exhaust Pipes on page 32
OK so here is the blueprint section I hope this shows up OK. Jerry
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/FrankAndruss/Higgins76ftengineroom.jpg[/image]
Next is another picture of the same engines from the perspective of the watertight door. If you look treal hard you can see the word Scott as in Hall Scott Defender engine on the front of the engine in the background, (the word is framed by the ladder rungs).
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/FrankAndruss/00000011.jpg[/image]
Next is a couple of photos of the real Vimalert engines, and if you compare the engineroom pictures to these actual Vimalerts you can see they are difinitely different.
Side view of Vimalert Engine
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/FrankAndruss/00000009.jpg[/image]
Front view of Vimalert engine ( notice how different it is from one in engineroom picture!
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/FrankAndruss/00000010.jpg[/image]
In summary, this is why I think these are Hall Scott engines inside of PT70 aka MRB2 taken sometimes in late 1941 Jerry
Jerry Gilmartin
Posted By: Jerry Gilmartin | Posted on: Jan 11, 2009 - 3:28pm
Total Posts: 1498 | Joined: Oct 8, 2006 - 11:16pm
Jerry, Frank and all . . .
Great shots Jerry, thanks much.
Frank, Below find two (quicky cut & paste) drawings also from the Louisiana Digital Library these show cross sections of the haul with the Exhaust detailed. Interesting note however, on PT-5 an earlier drawing (not attached) from May of 1940 showed the exhaust being vented to the aft of the boat similar to the ELCO's. However the drawing I included below is much later from December of 1940 it shows a revised porting of the exhaust to the sides.
One of the engine photos posted by Jerry show the Hall-Scott Engines that Higgins used in there own designed 76' MTB first built for Finland but diverted to the UK by the U.S. government in fear the Germans might capture them. After the initial five boats another five boats were built for the UK.
The PT-6 drawings always showed side port exhaust.
Here we go . . . .
PT-5 Drawing
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Webmaster/PT-5_Exhaust.jpg[/image]
PT-6 Drawing
[image]http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p249/ptboats/Webmaster/PT-6_Exhaust.jpg[/image]
Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Jan 11, 2009 - 4:21pm
Total Posts: 1489 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm
Jerry and Dick
Thanks so much for the great photos and the drawings. So in retrospect, the Hall Scott Engines were in MRB-2, and the Supercharged Vimelert engines were in PT5 and PT 6? Or, were Packard Marine Engines in both the first Higgins built Sparkman & Stevens design boat, and Higgins own designed second PT 6. Jerry, sorry about the hard questions, it sems that some books I have read shed a different light as to what engines were in which boats.
Now, the other photo I sent showing the Vimelert engines, which do not appear to be supercharged and look nothing like the photo's Jerry just posted, are what? It seems this should be a pretty easy thing here. Dr. Ross, can you shed any light on this issue..........
Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Jan 11, 2009 - 4:49pm
Total Posts: 3547 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am
According to the book “Adrew Jackson Higgins” by J.E. Strahan, page 43 states PT-6 (the first one) was powered by Packard engines during the April 1940 Navy test on Lake Pontchartrain. There is no mention in the book as to the Engines for PT-6 (Prime) Higgins better version of PT-6. I would assume they were also Packards. Else where in the book it talks about PT-5 as being under powered with it’s three Vimalert engines.
Posted By: Dick | Posted on: Jan 11, 2009 - 5:27pm
Total Posts: 1489 | Joined: Aug 27, 2006 - 6:36pm
Seven Packard 3M-2500 engines were built. Two for PT 3 Two for PT 4 and three for PT 6. PT 5 was powered by three 1,200 h.p Sterling Vimalert engines. PT 6 prime had three Packard 4M 2500 engines as the 3M 2500 was redesigned and the new engine designated 4M 2500.
Posted By: rcr | Posted on: Jan 12, 2009 - 8:06pm
Total Posts: | Joined: Unregistered
Dick, Jerry and RCR
Thanks very much for the outstanding effort you made to clear up this matter on the early boats. I can now add photos to the book in good concience knowing we are correct in what power-plant went with which boat. One thing is for sure, this message board is a wonderful mix of folks who go out of their way to help one another. Its one of the best on the web.........
Posted By: Frank J Andruss Sr | Posted on: Jan 13, 2009 - 2:38am
Total Posts: 3547 | Joined: Oct 9, 2006 - 6:09am